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A podcast where you join me (Colie) as I chat about what it takes to grow a sustainable + profitable business.
CRM Guru, Family Filmmaker, and Host of the Business-First Creatives podcast. I help creative service providers grow and streamline their businesses using Dubsado.
As you’ve explored hiring during our Building a Team Series on the podcast, have you considered hiring associate photographers for your brand? In today’s episode, Jill Smith joins us to share how she has scaled her photography business by working with other photographers who have a passion for photographing people and events. Listen in as she shares the value of associates for all parties, the process of hiring the right photographers, and what her backend workflow looks like in her business!
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Jill Smith is a lifestyle family photographer serving the New York Catskills & Hudson Valley.
Today’s episode is brought to you by my Client Hub Template inside the DIY Systems Template Shop. Business owners often have their client information spread across a variety of different tools, making it hard to access the information they need to make critical decisions. That’s why I built the Client Hub Template for Airtable, to take the guesswork out of building your own!
Here are the highlights…
[2:20] Get to Know Jill
[6:51] Strategically Launching on Black Friday
[10:29] What to Look for in Associate Photographers
[13:13] Red Flags in Associates
[16:30] Overcoming Nerves in Taking the First Step with Associates
[18:07] Buying Time Back with AI Culling & Editing
[19:44] Buying Time Back with Technology
[20:37] Auditing Your Offers
[23:37] The Client Hub Template
[26:16] Jill’s Program Details
[28:26] Growth for Your Business
Mentioned in this Episode
CRM Blueprint for Creatives (Honeybook Beta Course)
Colie’s Black Friday Offers
CRM Blueprint for Creatives (Dusbado edition)
Connect with Jill
Review the Transcript:
Colie: Hello. Hello. And welcome back to the business first creatives podcast. Today. I have a returning guest. Now, let me be honest. You guys know, I hate solo episodes. And so any excuse to have someone join me is awesome. I want to invite Jill Smith back to the podcast. If you have not listened to her previous episode, which was episode 40.
Just for a refresher, you might want to go back and listen because a few of the topics that we discussed today were something that actually sparked from our conversation back in February of 2023. Jill, good morning and welcome back to the podcast.
Jill: Good morning. Thanks for having me back.
Colie: I mean, I was very excited about your email because anything to avoid doing a solo episode, but as like a, as like a teacher, as like a business coach, I was also extremely excited to see your email because I mean, you are not special in the, in the idea of me telling you to do something when you get off the podcast.
I’ve actually done it quite a few times, but I feel like you’re the 1st person to come back and be like, hey, Colie, I’m doing that thing. You told me to deal. Let’s talk about it. And I’m like, yes.
Jill: Are you noticing a pattern?
Colie: I am so, and it’s also great that you’re coming on this month series because everything this month is based on building a team and you are starting to create your very own course to help photographers build their own associate team.
So bravo to you.
Jill: Thank you. Yeah, this is very fun and exciting and totally, initiated by your suggestion. So
Colie: Well, and I mean you were already doing it. I was just like, okay, no, this, this needs to be a course because I know that people would love to hear it. And it’s not just that I feel like it’s a course that needs to be out there. I was just really impressed by the way that you were hiring your associate team and the way that you did the infrastructure.
I was like, I have never heard this. No, this would be fascinating. So let’s backtrack. So Jill, in case they didn’t hear episode 40, why don’t you introduce yourself, and talk about your, your journey to open your photography business. And then we’re going to jump into the associate side.
Jill: Yeah. So, I’m Jill Smith. I have Jill C. Smith Photography. I am located in the New York Catskills, which is about 90 miles north of New York City. So, while I am closest to a big city. I am in a very, very rural area and it’s, we have a very small middle class. So, I face a lot of the same challenges that photographers in rural areas face with, the income of their demographic and everything like that and wondering.
And by the way, it’s, it can still work. You can still be highly profitable and, and charge what you want regardless of what. The numbers say,
Jill: so anyway, I am a family photographer. I’m strictly a family photographer and I’ve been in business for a little over 10 years. And it was a few years back when I got so sick during my busy season.
It was like mid October and I, it was stomach bug. I got dehydrated. I passed out. It was really dramatic. And I ended up with like a staple in my head and like a broken tooth and a concussion. I was in the hospital and I couldn’t even edit because when you have a concussion, you can’t even look at a screen, right?
So I was S. O. L. for the remainder of my busy season and so were my clients and my husband was actually like Jill, what contractors don’t have subcontractors working for them? Like, why don’t you have a team? You should have a team. So that kind of sparked this idea in me to build this team, in my family photography business.
You know, I have seen it done in the wedding industry. I think it’s really common there. so when I started to look on how to do this. That’s, that’s all I was coming across was how to do it in the wedding, in a wedding industry for a wedding photographer, which is, there’s, there’s some big differences there and I had a lot of trouble figuring it out and I had to kind of, piecemeal it together and figure it out.
And, uh, what I ended up. with was a pair of really incredible photographers. Now I have three who are on my team who, can basically do anything that I do, but they each also have their own specialties, uh, that I don’t have. One of them is an award winning documentary style photographer and who hates the business side of things.
So she’s been a great. Person to have on my team. Another one is a wedding photographer. She has her own business, but she’s also in HR. So she’s really great with people and does things with couples that I. Don’t want to and can’t do and the other one is a lifestyle family photographer like me So she’s my go to for jobs that I would normally do but can’t or don’t want to do.
So it’s it’s been great it’s been a journey and You know, there’s been a little bit of ironing out of kinks along the way But yeah, I did figure out a system that was streamlined and easy for me and easy for them and my clients That doesn’t require me you know, tempting the fates with, with screwing something up or, or missing a step.
It’s, I’ve made it pretty easy on myself for this all to work out.
Colie: I mean, I have been like a staunch supporter of telling every photographer, like, what’s your end game? Because I don’t think that most of us are thinking, you know, you and I have both been photographers for 10 plus years. I don’t think that anyone is actively thinking about what it’s going to be at your 20.
Like, are you still going to be photographing families or weddings, if that’s your thing? I feel like when we have nine to five careers, we think about pensions and what retirement is going to look like and like those kinds of things. And I feel like when we jump into entrepreneurship, we’re so busy building the business that we really don’t consider what it’s going to look like in 15, 20 years.
Are you still going to be doing the same creative service? That you started with and of course, I think everyone listening to this podcast knows for me. It’s a no. I mean, I have pretty much flipped my business on its head and now I am doing systems as a service and I’m also teaching systems to other photographers and so I’m excited.
Every time I come across a photographer that is like kind of figured out what their business 2. 0 looks like. And for you, it’s going to be this new course. So why are you launching it on Black Friday?
Jill: So, so the timing works out well with what I actually want to do for my students. I think that if you’re a family photographer, chances are your slow season is going to be December or January until March or April. So that’s when I personally like to start to onboard, you know, you. Seeking out, interviewing, onboarding, training, mentoring, really, the photographers that you’re going to bring onto your team so that when June rolls around, that’s normally when I send them out, without their training wheels, training wheels is like May.
So June is when the new photographers get to go out on their own and they start taking their first sessions, but by then they’ve already had three to four months of really intensive. I call it mentoring because the IRS likes that better than training. IRS doesn’t want to hear that you’re training your subcontractors, but it, if you happen to have mentored them as a photographer to photographer before then, that’s totally kosher.
So that’s what I do leading up to the months and then they’ve. They’ve really been indoctrinated in the way that I do things or, and, know my posing workflows and the systems and everything like that so that they’re good to go by June. So, Black Friday for photographers who might be thinking about this, and I imagine that, again, family photographers, most of us, This is our busy season.
It’s coming to an end by Black Friday, and you may be at the point now where you’re realizing that you do need a team or maybe just one helper or somebody to have as a, you know, in your back pocket. if you’re thinking about it, then we’re going to have this offer ready for you so that you can start learning how to implement this system in your own business.
Colie: It’s funny every time I hear family photographers talk about their busy season. And last year was definitely an outlier, but really before the pandemic, when I was still doing like steady photography work, December was actually my busiest month.
Jill: Right. For indoor,
Colie: exactly between people who wanted me to come into their house and like document them making Christmas cookies, writing out the Christmas cards, like doing those kinds of things.
And then also, I always had quite a few newborns in December. I don’t know what people were doing in March and
Colie: to produce these babies that were born in December, but like when I would look at the numbers of babies that were born. September was a really busy month and then December was a really busy month, but September made sense because those were like New Year’s babies.
That made sense, but having babies in December.
Colie: Yeah, it’s just weird. Okay, so I 100 percent love that you are doing this for Black Friday so that really people can dive into the material in Q1 when it is traditionally almost everyone’s slow season. When I first launched my course CRM blueprint, that’s actually what I did.
I did a beta sale on Black Friday, and then by January, I had the course ready to go. And of course, January, February are perfect time for photographers and really anyone to like set up their systems because you don’t have a lot of leads coming in. And so you do actually have the time to dedicate working on these systems.
And it turns out that your course is just going to be another set of systems. So, if someone is interested, they’re of course going to check the course out. But just for like some general tips for people who are looking at potentially bringing on some team members as associates, what do you look for in like a good associate photographer?
Jill: You might think, most photographers might think the first thing to look for is another good photographer. But I think that’s the easiest. Thing to be taught you can teach somebody the technical and you can teach somebody how to pose and that your angles That’s very easy to teach. So that’s really one of the the last things I look for.
I’m looking for somebody Who has a similar personality to me I want and and my associates don’t all have Are are not just like me, but they can step into that space to be, you know, you have to be talkative. I want to make sure that, um, my photographers are not making the clients feel awkward. So, can they be congenial?
Can they get people comfortable in front of the camera? You know, I think it’s important to, um, understand. What your clients are coming to you for, and then make sure that your associates have those same qualities, because it’s going to be different for every business. I know when I look back at my reviews, people, mostly moms, talk about feeling like they’ve known me for a long time, feeling like they’re meeting up with an old friend, they forgot they were being photographed, that sort of thing.
And that’s what I’m looking for, because that’s harder to train. I’m looking for somebody who might have their own business already, or might not. I don’t mind that. In fact, it’s fine. I’m happy to, to bring them on because what ends up happening is they might be earlier in their career where they’re charging 50 bucks
Jill: once they start working for me and they’re making, You know, 300 an hour.
They’re not going to, they’re not going to want to be charging 50 anymore. They’re going to start to see their own value and the value of the service that they provide, and they’re going to learn a lot about running a business the right way and, um, a sustainable way by working with me. And those, at those, Those people, um, my associates, I share all of that information freely with them as if I was mentoring them, uh, along the way and I watch their business grow.
One of my associates is looking to go full time in her wedding business, er, wedding photography business right now. So that’s something that I’m kind of helping her because I want to see it for her too. One of my associates is a teacher and she tried to start. photography business as a side thing.
She absolutely hated the business end. She’s the most artistic photographer that I know. She, it’s like, it’s the art that she’s drawn to. She’s an art teacher. It’s art that she’s drawn to, not the business. She hates it. So she loves just getting the jobs from me, making extra money on the weekends, and then going back to work.
So she has no intention of starting a business. I think that there can be red flags though. If there’s somebody who, who’s like. The main goal is to start a business and they’re looking at this opportunity only as a stepping stone,
Jill: then it might not be a good fit because what’s being reciprocated there is going to be really lopsided.
You’re going to be giving a lot of information away. I’m not a big scarcity person. I do believe in abundance, but I think it can get a little bit hairy. if, if the, you’re, we’re not both being transparent about our end game here. I’m very transparent with my associates. They know what I’m making with their sessions.
They know what they’re making. They know what I tell the clients and all of these things and my, my goals, and I know their goals. So if you are considering somebody and you’re having a hard time trusting them, if you’re having a hard time sharing with them, just trust your gut. For whatever reason, this is not going to be a good pairing.
And that happens too. But you have to be able to ultimately have somebody that you trust and that you can share all your good shooting spots, all of your secrets, your presets, whatever, and not, not be afraid that that is somehow going to, overturn your business or whatever is unique about you.
Colie: No, I mean, and Jill, and I love that because what I’m hearing you saying is community over competition, and I do wholeheartedly agree. If someone is only looking at this opportunity as a stepping stone. They might not be putting forth the effort that someone who just uniquely loves photography hates business and would love for someone to just tell them to show up and have to, you know, interact with the clients.
Because isn’t that what we all say? Don’t we all say, Oh, I just wish I had more time to spend with my clients. And I wish that, you know, all of the other things could just be magically done. And so you are presenting them with this offer of, Hey. I am going to give you the opportunity to work with amazing families and photograph the sessions, and then you’re going to get to do nothing else.
I’m going to edit. I’m going to deliver the galleries. I’m actually going to be booking the clients. So all of these things are laid out for you and you literally just get to show up for the hour. And hang out and produce some amazing photos and then your part is done. So I do think that there are a lot of people that would find that very, very appealing.
Jill: Right. I would.
Colie: I mean, I’ve, I’ve thought that a few times. I was speaking with my business coach, I think it was at the end of last year. And she asked me, well, have you ever thought of an agency model? And she was asking, or at least I thought she was asking me about systems. And she goes, no, I mean, for your photography too.
And I was like, Yeah, no, I mean, I, I want to show up for my clients. Like, I want someone else to do all of the other stuff. Like, I want to hang out in their house for like two, three hours, blah, blah, blah. But she was like, you know, you might think about it, but again. She’s not in our world and so what she was really talking about was associates, but they call it an agency model.
I mean, it’s kind of weird when
Jill: That’s fancy.
Colie: yeah, when you’re between the world and they they say these things and you’re like Do you just mean associates and they’re like, what’s an associate and I’m like, okay This is where the language is a barrier, but we’re both talking about the same thing. Mm
Jill: Yeah. Yeah. No, it really is great. The first time that I sent one out and I was here at home. It was very nerve wracking and that’s how it feels the first time I’ve sent any of them out on their own and then once they come back with us, they, you know, smile on their face and the client is ecstatic and they, because, because I, you know, we brought on the right people and they’re, they’re enthusiastic.
They want to do a good job, because if they don’t do a good job, they’re subcontractors. There’s nothing saying that I have to keep asking them to come and work for me. So, they earn their keep by doing a great job. And why not? So, it’s been great. I love being home. And then, you know, I get a little paycheck.
And all I’m doing… Is using my reputation, which is now, if you know, it’s, it’s kind of running itself where you have the reputation. If you have been in business long enough where the leads are coming in with less effort than it used to take. So, whereas my associates who are much earlier on aren’t getting the leads, I’m getting them.
I’m coordinating, sending them out. They bring me back the raws. And now with AI, it’s. It’s so stupid easy to get everything like I, I’m still hand editing, but it, it takes me 30 to 60 minutes to edit and deliver a session once it’s culled with AI. So, and I, and this winter, actually, I’m going to be training my, aftershoot on how to edit like me.
And I’m going to see how that works. Cause I think I could be buying back a lot of time with that
Colie: I mean, I’m personally jealous. I mean, this is the one time, Jill, you know, I hate being outside. This is the one time that I am jealous of outdoor photographers because I do think that AI does an amazing job. You can train AI to edit your outdoor sessions and have them almost like you. I have still not been able to get that done at an indoor session.
The mix of overhead lights and window lights often confuses it. Like there was a fresh 48 that I did when I was trying out. I mean, let’s be honest, it was after shoot, but I don’t blame them. I mean, it’s not, it’s not really a thing with them, but. I mean, the white balance that I shot was almost where I wanted it.
It just needed to be cooled just a tiny bit. And the AI got confused with the overhead lights and the window lights and completely made it green and warm. And I was like,
Jill: That is tricky.
Colie: this is not going to work. I mean, and it would be one thing if I had given it something that was like really bad in terms of white balance to start, but the colors were actually pretty decent when I uploaded it and it just took it to the complete extreme.
So I was like, okay,
We’re not, we’re not there yet with AI editing. I mean, I love AI calling.
Jill: I bet it will be. I bet it will get there, but yeah, it’s, it’s not, I, I do fresh 48s too. I shut off all the lights when I do a fresh 48 because I hate mixed lighting and I just live at the window, but I haven’t, I haven’t considered a AI for that either because it is trickier with the white balance and everything in the shadows and it’s like a much more bigger changes than shooting outside where you really have, it is.
It can be pretty consistent. So yeah, I, I think once I can get like the AI to edit too, it’s
Colie: edit for you. That’s one more task off your plate, Jill. Nice. Okay.
Jill: yeah, because I just recently delivered some associate mini sessions and I timed myself. I want to see how long this is actually taking, cause I like to know what I’m making an hour and, uh, me and the associate were each making around 3. 50 an hour. Because with mini sessions, you’re doing much more, more, you know, working with more families in an hour.
So she was making more per hour and so was I, and it was like super quick and I upgraded to a crazy fast computer this year, which has bought me time back. It’s another way to buy time is to get 96 gigabytes of RAM. So that’s, I know my computer friend was like, that is not necessary. I’m like, well, guess what?
I don’t know anything about computers, so they’re going to get my money. Yeah, so you can buy back your time that way and make these even more efficient for you, but I love it. I love being home with pants that don’t button and with or without a bra and making money with
Colie: I mean, and that’s really great that you have, because I mean, of course, that’s how I met you again. If anybody has not listened to episode 40, the first time that I had Jill on the backstory is, last in Thanksgiving week of 2023, I decided to do a three part series and everybody, if you have not listened to those episodes, I believe it was 26, 27 and 28.
Those were full of goodness. Like, Hey, you’re coming to the end of your year. Do you know how you really did in your business? And so each day I was asking you to kind of do a mini audit on a different part of your business. And not only do a Facebook group with like Excel spreadsheets and was like, okay, Colie, this is what I made.
This is what I figured out. What do I do next? And I was like, Oh my God, will you come on my podcast and talk about this? So when Jill says that she knows her numbers, like she really knows her numbers. And so I just feel like this is a tip for everyone. Regardless of what you are going to do going forward, as we close out 2023, I highly recommend that each of you sit down and figure out what your current hourly rate is.
And when you are figuring this out, you have to take everything into account. That’s how much time you’re spending communicating with people during the booking process. And guess what? You can create systems to buy back that time. How much time you’re actually spending during the shoot. And I mean, you know, when we’re first starting out, I think a lot of us are taking longer in the session than we need to because we’re still learning how to do our creativity as a job.
And again, as you do this more and more, you will get back more time because you will be more efficient during your shoots. And then, of course, there’s the back end. The edit, the delivery, the creation of the products, the delivery of the products, all of that good stuff. So this time of year is really good to think about where your business is going for the next year.
But you can’t really do that if you didn’t know how you really did this year. And that’s beyond, Oh, I’m exhausted. Or, Oh, I photographed a hundred families. Or, Oh, I made six figures. Like, it is more nuanced than that. Sorry, I got on my, I got on my
Jill: No, no, it, it is. And I’m, I’m getting ready to do my audit for this year. I want to see how it’s comparing. And it’s funny how my offers, I, I, I’m looking at like what my offers, my main offers for 2022 were. And how they compare. So they’ve changed a bit and, yeah, and I’ve, I’m working on it’s not that much work, but that template that, that I made in Excel, I’m just going to make it so it’s polished enough that I can share it with the people I’m mentoring and any of my other photographer friends so that they can use it too and see, because I need to be more intentional.
I think most people want to be more intentional with their business. So it’s not this big guessing game every year. And you want to look at your, your, for it. your graphs here and see what’s even worth your time each quarter and what, what’s bringing the money and what’s working, what’s not working.
Colie: Oh my gosh, Jill. I just realized, you were on the podcast and now I have a new product in my system shop. So I was talking about my air table base. I think a little too much and people were like, oh my gosh, Colie. I really want that in my business. So I did finally make a create your client hub, which I’ve always said air table is like a Google spreadsheet on steroids, but I do have a new product in the shop where it will zap over.
All of your client data. And then in the end of the year, it’s all an air table and you have your list of clients, how much money they paid you when the last time they hired you, what kind of sessions so that you can look at those different views to figure out, you know, how much you made off newborns, how much you made off of your associates, all of that kind of good stuff.
I mean, I think everyone should have one place where you can go and find out all of the information about your clients. And guys, I will say Jill’s, Jill’s spreadsheet is like. It’s on point. I
Jill: It’s a good one. It’s a good one. Well, cause then I, I did, I dug deeper and then I, made more tables to show like, okay, so here’s what’s coming in each quarter from each offer,
Jill: by hours.
Colie: financial projections.
Jill: Yes. Yeah. And I wanted to see what was, uh, the hourly rate and everything like that.
And so that’s been, that’s been really fun. And I want to learn more about Airtable. It sounds like something I need. I,
maybe you and I will talk
Colie: Yes. After we stop, after we stop recording, I’m happy to share all my goodness. Okay. So this offer is going to be live on Black Friday and guys, I want to say, I am actually taking my own advice for the second time. Those of you that are HoneyBook users, my Black Friday offer is going to be a beta version of the CRM Blueprint.
Yes. It has only taken me Two full years, but there is finally going to be another version of the CRM blueprint. And so if you haven’t listened to the create your black Friday offer episode, I highly recommend that you go back and listen to that because I gave you three ways. that you could create a Black Friday offer for yourself that didn’t include a discount.
And so I am going to, for the second time ever, by the time you’re listening to this recording, it’s probably live on my website. But for HoneyBook users, I am creating a new version of my course. I am doing a beta sale of it for this Black Friday. And of course, very similar to the Dubsado version, you will be getting the live trainings starting in January.
Now, Jill. Talk to me about your offer before I let you go. So they’re going to sign up on Black Friday. When are you actually starting the group program?
Jill: It’s going to start in January and we’ll go from January through March. So it’ll be 12, 12 week program, with, with two monthly Zoom meets. That people can hop on to ask questions and hear what the other group members are doing and how it’s going. So that we can kind of fix kinks and things like that.
Any problems that I didn’t come across, we’re gonna workshop together. And, uh, figure, figure out any issues and suggestions and things like that. Feedback, all that good stuff. Yeah, I think it’ll be nice to have a, a community, working together for as we are in beta. And really. Figuring, figuring a lot more out than I can on my own.
Colie: I mean, and I just think again, guys, this was perfect timing to talk about Jill’s offer because the previous episodes in this series have all talked about what to do before you hire a team. And I got to be honest, associates wasn’t on my list of things that I was covering. I know in the episode with Liz, we talked about how to communicate with your team and the episode with Brooke, we talked about how to.
Think and plan your systems out before you actually bring on a team. But like Jill’s got the systems for you if you are planning on hiring an associate team. So she’s actually taking care of that bit. She is going to teach you how to build a team, how to create systems that allow you. To take something else off your plate.
And in this time, it’s not actually the systems or the editing, which is what all photographers focus on when we’re like, okay, how can I get time back in my business? I don’t think that anyone really considers going the associate route because it feels like it would be more work. Then just hiring somebody to edit your images.
And there’s also like a lot of room for things to go wrong. And then of course there’s that hiring question that we’ve already addressed. I know it, it, it actually, you know, it’s giving me a little chest pain thinking about bringing on team members and sending them out into houses without me, but
I think that this is an amazing system and I hope that you are able to help lots of people build associate teams of their own in less stress.
Jill: I hope so, too. Yeah, it is. I think we all automatically think of like outsourcing and accounting and then maybe even a V. A. when we’re looking to add to our team, which are all good things. But consider. Being at a session with one of your longtime clients while one of your associates is photographing a proposal, which is something I would never do.
And then another one is photographing a bat mitzvah, which is something else that I don’t do. I don’t do events. That happened this year. We are all in different places on the same day. So, just think about the, the room for real growth, the growth in your income, and then as, as the editing becomes even more streamlined, that’s no longer this overwhelming thing that you’re inheriting when they come back.
But by the way, if you can, I, I’m going to be teaching, My editing workflow, it’s really unorthodox, which I’ve come to accept, but it is really efficient and it’s, , my work is consistent, so it works for me and I will be teaching that to my, uh, my students so that if they want to adopt that to really streamline everything further, they can, but yeah, it’s, it associates create so much more, um, room for growth.
If you’re looking to scale your business and, you know, maybe education isn’t the right path for you or. You’re not a wedding photographer. How are you going to scale? It’s not something that you can possibly sell down the road. What can you do? Well, here’s something that you can do if you really want to move to the next level.
Colie: All right, Jill. I, I know that you have piqued someone’s interest, so if they would like to connect with you, where can they find you on the internet?
Jill: It’s pretty easy. Jill C. Smith Photography. Don’t forget the C. You can find me on Instagram at that name. You can find me on Facebook at that name. And my website is www. jillscsmithphotography. com and you can add slash scale if you want to learn about the five mistakes to avoid when you are bringing on associates.
That is a PDF that if you give me your email, I’ll give you a PDF.
Jill: Yeah, yeah.
Colie: All right, guys, this is the very last episode in this build a team series. And as you heard, we just admit like Jill was the last edition and I brought her on because she sent me an email. I mean, guys, I say I don’t accept pitches, but sometimes when they’re really good, I’m like, absolutely. Let me see where we can make some room.
All right, Jill, thank you so much for joining me. That’s it for this episode. See you next time.