Why Your Client Experience Is Costing You Money with Emily Mathis

Colie: Fun fact guys. I’m here with Emily today and we have rescheduled this podcast episode four times. Yes, four

times. It’s a new world record, but we are here today and I do wanna say what I thought we were gonna talk about. We nix that so we have a new topic to talk about. And I think that some of you’re gonna be very happy because thinking about it, it is something that I talk about often. I don’t think I’ve had an episode on it in at least two years. So Emily, welcome to Business First Creative.

Emily: Thanks for having me.

Colie: So guys, today we’re gonna talk about outsourcing and I feel like you’re just like, oh yeah, you talk about outsourcing all the time, but Emily’s got a different kind of spin on it that we’re gonna talk about. And I also feel like I see several people in my emails, in my dms. Just in the social space in general, that y’all really need some outsourcing. I mean, if I could just like wave my magic wand and tell you guys to do something, it would be outsourcing. And I’m not even talking about strategy, which is what both Emily and I, you know, focus on.

We’re very experienced in. But like I see a lot of people. Still in the process of doing when they should really be in the process of asking somebody else to do it. So Emily, let’s kickstart this off. I’m curious, what’s the first thing that you outsourced in your business

Emily: Fun fact, I have not outsourced 

Colie: at all? 

Emily: ai. No, because I have never had, at my peak, I’ve only had four clients at a time and I. Have never prioritized social media. So I think I did the math once when I was gonna launch something and I had for two years a total of 60 posts. And so that would’ve been the thing I outsourced.

I’ve never had an official website, so again, the things I would outsource for. I never prioritized. I just didn’t plan for, I was like, cool referrals just build my business that way. I don’t have to have a website. I don’t wanna be on social, like all that kinda stuff. So again, the things I would outsource, copywriting, website design, brand photography, all that kind of stuff just haven’t come up yet for me.

Haven’t been a priority. 

Colie: so you do your own bookkeeping?

Emily: Yes, which I would not recommend is the, that I to look into that. And then I lost my big client and so I was like, cool, that’s gonna go on the back burner.

Colie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: But yeah, that is, I’ve taken a lot of like webinars, but I also, when I was at a retreat, we had a bookkeeper come in and talk about it and I was like, oh yeah, I don’t wanna do this.

Like, I don’t wanna be in that and. Quite frankly, I’ve never been at that income level where I felt it was necessary. 

Colie: See, I don’t typically think of bookkeeping as something that you have to be at a certain level of income.

I think that it sometimes has a lot of things to do with you hating a particular thing. I mean, there’s, we’re

probably gonna get into this conversation

of why you choose to outsource the thing that you

choose to outsource and bookkeeping for a lot of people. Isn’t necessarily about income. It isn’t necessarily about the volume, which that’s what it was for me for a very

long time. It was the volume,

and I don’t even wanna say it was the volume of transactions from my clients, because I could totally handle that. I mean, when you’re selling a $5,000 offer, you’re not, you’re not selling it to that

many people. Right? But. What I do is I buy a lot of shit. I

buy a lot of $27 offers that all need to be categorized in QuickBooks and I, math. Math degree, math professor.

Hello. I also took. Many, many, many classes in both undergrad and graduate for accounting.

So even though I am not a legit accountant, I feel like I probably have more skills than most people that we

know.

But I finally started outsourcing my bookkeeping because it was the thing that I dreaded and I

personally would not categorize. I mean, filling heart, palpitations, talking about this. I personally would not do my bookkeeping until three days before tax season. Before tax day.

Emily: Yeah, for sure. I, it’s, you know, it’s funny we’re talking about that because that is, I just said it out loud to someone yesterday, come hell or high water, January 1st, I will be set up. Properly for bookkeeping and taxes, you know, because I think when I’m also just coming out of some survival mode kind of in your business, you know, when you get in those times where you’re just like.

I don’t know what’s happening and you’re kind of just taking everything. So investments were low, which I’m like you, I usually am like, course, course, course. Just gimme all the things. So, but I also, because systems are my thing, I’ve created system to track all of that. So I’m not relying on me to pull it at the end when taxes are due.

But yeah, there’s definitely, that is not an area I feel. Confident in and do know that it’s something that is the difference between pulling my hair out when taxes are due and feeling like, cool, I got a handle on this.

Colie: No, three straight days is what I used to do before ta before April 15th. It used to be in red Sharpie marker on my calendar

because for three days straight, I would barely eat and I would lock myself in my office and I would basically categorize, you know, 12 months worth of expenses and the worst. I mean, and you would think that I would’ve learned my lesson.

The absolute worst was the travel, uh, mileage.

So I would have to go back and find every single one of my clients, figure out when I went to their house, when I came back, figure out the mileage, I would basically build my spreadsheet. Then now, eventually I started using a mileage tracker,

but even then I was like, not swiping left or right, which I know it sounds like a dating app, but you swipe, I don’t know, left for business and right for personal.

I wouldn’t do that until right before tax season and I would do it. And I was also one of those people that like. Just did it enough to get my taxes where I wanted to

be. I know for a fact I could always have more deductions. I really

could. But there was a point where I would just do enough and when I was like, oh, I owe like 2,500.

You know what? That’s good enough for me. Let me just stop looking for more deductions, pay the $2,500 and go on about my day.

So that’s how, that’s how taxes were for me. Now I have bookkeepers. Now, I don’t do any of that stuff. I

just, 

Emily: fair, can I ask a clarifying question when you are talking about this, like when you first hired a bookkeeper and like what you’re talking about with mileage tracking, was this when you were a photographer? Okay. See that’s the other thing, like I think if I was doing something more like that, like where I was outta the house and stuff, that would’ve been a whole different discussion.

But my business is literally me on my laptop. And so I think in my head, right or wrong, it’s like I don’t, I didn’t feel the need for a book bookkeeper, but I’m gonna be going into year four of being full-time, like left my job full-time in this and it’s like, hmm, probably time to get that dialed 

Colie: Probably time to get that dialed in, Emily, but

it’s 

Emily: probably time like two years ago if we’re being real, but

Colie: okay. I think I’m gonna be your buddy in this, and

so maybe on like January 15th, I’m gonna be like, Hey Emily, did you find yourself a bookkeeper

or did you just, did you just bare minimum set your QuickBooks up?

Emily: Well, I’m actually, I’ve selfishly tried to get my best friend to become a bookkeeper ’cause she’s good with numbers. And I was like, you can make some serious good like side hustle money once you’re set up. She hasn’t done it. So 

Colie: I mean, I feel you Emily. I used to have a teaching assistant in my, in my photography education business. So

I mean, you know, I educate people on

systems now, but. Way back in the beginning of my photography, business, I, the first, I, I mean I made a course, in the first year of being a

photographer. It was a course on how to build your lifestyle photography business,

and I had a teaching assistant. And selfishly, I taught Kayla how to make films

because I needed someone to film my family, and I didn’t like all of the other people

that like offered this service. So I was like, Hey, Kayla. Like, I don’t care if you ever offer video services to any of your clients, but I need you to learn

and then I need you to come to Denver and then I need you to film my family.

And she did great. And I mean now she makes, you know, lots and lots of money off of making films for other people. But selfishly, I definitely taught her how to do it just so that I could hire somebody that I liked, that I

Emily: Yeah, I’m like if, ’cause my friend likes numbers, she likes when they all like, you know, likes the simplicity of it and I’m like, I could do it if I put attention to it, I just would be bored. I think I would just like be so bored and I think she really likes it. So I was like, you know, you could learn QuickBooks and just saying, I know there’s a lot of people who have online businesses who would just want someone who could just do their QuickBooks.

Colie: You’re like, I’m just saying I know these

Emily: I could be your test client.

Colie: Well, let’s talk about other things.

So if you’ve never outsourced in

your business, let’s flip it and say,

what do people typically come to you to outsource? Like what is the biggest pain point that most of your clients have?

Emily: Most of my clients, it’s the tech setup in the backend for courses, funnels, that kind of things. Onboarding, not manually. you know, Sometimes I like see people still say that they do it manually. And I was like, I didn’t think people still did that 

Colie: I mean, like,

how do, how do you do that? I, I don’t even know how you would do that. Like,

they buy my thing in Thrive Cart, they get added to the Thrive Cart course, like they get pushed over to my email marketing and they get an email. And I realize that sounds very technical, but like that shit took me an hour to set up.

And

I realize I am not your ideal client. I am very tech savvy, but still

like, I just like really.

Emily: Well, and, and sometimes, so my first two years was solely people who were starting to get into the online education space. Like one of ’em was going from brick and mortar to starting to coach people then wanted to do a group program. She had no idea how to like. Do the group program. So it was like helping map out the group program and then setting it up.

but my first big client came to me because they were about to launch their second round of a group program, and they’re like, I just, I don’t have the time for all of this. Like, I just, I’m done. And I was like, cool. And so I come in and take the, tech step off their plate.

Colie: Nice. So if they’re coming to you because they’re, you know, moving from like a service perspective or it was brick and mortar into like the education space, there is a lot of tech

that happens. And so I think my first question to you is, are people coming to you kind of with a blank slate and just saying, Emily, these are, this is my business. Help me or are they coming to you with a particular tech stack that they’ve already kind of, you know,

told themselves that they’re gonna use and they’re looking for your help in implementation?

Emily: It is been kind of half and half. Honestly, I prefer the ones who come to me with a blank slate. ‘Cause we all have our favorites. But I had a client who had invested really heavily in a very high ticket. Coaching experience that was pushing a particular tech stack for ads and automations and all this stuff.

And she was using like Kajabi for her courses, but she wasn’t making money on her courses yet. She was putting all this money out and I was like, I have to say something. I was like, this is not a fun transition and it’s gonna be feel like a real pain in the butt, ‘ but you’re spending all this money on Kajabi.

If you had thrivecart. Like, while you’re trying to start make money, you’re not, it’s not going out the door hosting your stuff. So I did talk her into, I, I think I’ve talked three people, three clients into switching to Thrive Guard, um

Colie: mean, thrivecart is good. Bare bones. I mean, I use thrivecart for my things, but I’ve also, I have never paid for Kajabi as an, as an educator.

I’ve been in it as like a student, so I’m very familiar with Kajabi. And now there seems to be like an insurgence of people who are going to circle for their courses and their memberships.

So there’s a lot of different tech pieces,

but like thrivecart does the job, like it gets, it

Emily: Yeah. If it’s a, if it’s a straight up, like delivering like course stuff like recordings, documents, that kind of stuff. Absolutely. Thrive Cart. Plenty. But I mean, it’s all, there’s nuance to everything, right? I think Circle has a nice interface and they’ve expanded some things. I prefer them over Mighty Networks and school and all of that, or a Facebook group.

Gosh. but

Colie: group groups just not died yet. I mean, I don’t

Emily: they haven’t,

Colie: and so I just assume they all died.

Emily: like, they haven’t completely, and there’s like, again, there’s reasons to it because if you’ve spent. Years building a Facebook group and you have thousands of people in there. Like you run the risk, if you try to transfer to even still free to a platform like school, you probably are gonna get maybe 10% of your people to 

Colie: Oh, I did that, but I’m, I’m gonna tell you, I

switched my people to a BB bulletin board.

Do you remember those? That tells you how long ago I had this course.

Yes. 2014 I believe it was. Or 2015.

Emily: say that’s like, 

Colie: Long time ago, but I used to build course like online courses when I

was still a professor. So like I

built the whole bulletin board.

Everything was great, but it was like pulling teeth

to get my photographers off of Facebook onto a different platform. So I. When I was still just teaching photographers, like it was a very steep hill to climb

getting them into the platform, I did lose a lot of people. I mean, they had already, you know, done the course, but it is a struggle to like keep the membership, keep the

not membership, but like keep the community going if you

will. But I just keept stand Facebook and so I’ve just decided that it’s fine if people have Facebook groups and that’s what they run their community on for their courses. That’s just not a course that I need.

Emily: I think we, but we’ve seen such an exodus from that. ’cause I think people were getting the memo. Nobody wanted to log into Facebook to be in a part of their group. They’re like, you know, I’m just gonna take the content. I don’t, I don’t need all that. And so I think you’re seeing more people go to something like a school or something, or even just moving it to like Telegram, you know, something that’s a separate app.

They don’t have to log into social media. ’cause that’s the other thing. A lot of us are very choosy about what social media we’re on right now. You know, but yeah, I’ve, I’ve had to work in platforms that I, you know, don’t love, of course. I’ve worked on the back end of Kajabi. I’ve set everything up.

my argument with platforms like that is their pricing structure. it’s really, unless you’re at a certain level and even then you’re spending a lot of money to host videos, really, and it’s not necessary.

Colie: Yeah. Okay. So we’ve talked about people like kind of coming to you to set up online courses and that sort of thing,

but let’s talk about like. What people would come to you for if they wanted strategy. Because you and I were kind of talking before we hit record

about VIP days and I was like, okay, wait, what’s your spin on it?

’cause no VIP days were my jam.

And I mean, you and I have only met recently,

but VIP days were my jam until the

beginning of last year. And then I was like, no, I have to figure out a way to not do these anymore.

You are thinking of doing like a VIP day, and tell me how it is that you are going to present the offer to people because it is very different from like what you said, a service of like website design.

So let’s talk about what, what is it that you would be selling in a VIP day?

Emily: I have also gone down the rabbit holes with VIP days. I love the concept and I’m, but I’m like, I’m not gonna commit to building something in eight hours. That’s bless anyone who could do that. That’s a lot. And, but I, I love strategy sessions. My strategy sessions aren’t just like a coach on Voxer, like do this, do this, do this.

I’m share your screen. Let’s walk through this. Let’s build this like troubleshooting tech, all that stuff. I mean, I can’t turn that part of my brain off. And so I found that just those like 90 minute strategy sessions, they’re great if you’re really just like stuck on something, stuck on a problem. But what I want to do is more.

Very similar to what you do for photographers and creatives. I wanna help people who have group programs and multiple offers. Button up their client experience for that offer. and really when you’re doing that, you don’t really wanna try to limit it to 90 minutes. I mean, I did one today and it was three hours, and we’re literally going module lesson, like each one in troubleshooting things like, well this is, there’s a gap here.

What about doing this? And like, it’s just. I, I think it would be better as a half day experience where we’re literally on Zoom together and, you know, it’s kind of also helps when you’re needing to get something done. Like you need that body double to be like, don’t go do it. so I think that’s it. It’s, it’s also, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this, people don’t prioritize that.

You know, it’s more what’s the launch when, what’s the sales page, what’s the messaging? All things that are important. Not saying that, but if people buy your offer. Then they are just like, the onboarding’s not great. They get too confused. I mean, you can tell when you go into your platforms and stuff, you can tell completion rates and when you have lit ones it’s usually because there’s something missing in your client experience.

And so I think it’s just keeps getting pushed down the list. And I’m like, if we can get it done in three hours. It’s gonna make you feel more confident when you go into launching. Knowing as soon as people buy, they’re gonna be in a really well thought out onboarding sequence. And then once they’re in the program, they have, it’s accessible, like for multiple learning types.

It’s not something that you’re asking them to sit down and watch an hour long video, which no one’s gonna do.

You’re gonna get people to complete it, which means getting them into your next offer is gonna be that much easier.

Colie: I mean the value of

repeat clients. I feel like I’ve said this quite a few times recently, but. is that if you put the emphasis on your client experience, because you know, almost all of us have people who have bought our thing,

but then we’re always marketing, we’re always putting new shit out.

We’re always being told that you have to, you know, expand your audience, be on social media. We were all joking

around the other day on our group call, and I was like, fuck that.

But if you just spend a little bit more energy on the people who are already in your container. Chances are you have something else that you could sell them, or if they have a really great experience, they’re gonna tell their friends and then they do the marketing for you.

I just don’t know how to convince people

that this is like the way that you make more money in your business without constantly marketing. To bring in new leads. Now, I’m not saying that, I mean, Emily, you might have the only business that doesn’t need new leads because when you get your little core people, you know what I mean?

Like you’re set until one of those people doesn’t need your services anymore.

I mean, I, I don’t know. I maybe I’m a little jealous of that. I mean, I do need new people, but

when I sat down with Emily Williams.

We were basically plotting out, you know, how many people do I wanna take inside of systems in

session? I mean, it’s 40 people a year. I don’t need an email list of 10,000

people in order to sell 40 spots for a program.

And if I just sold 40 spots for systems in session at the new price point. I will have hit my goal for the year and I mean, I don’t foresee that being, you know, super hard,

but like I don’t need to bring in a hundred new leads a month.

That’s not the kind of business that I’m running. But I do wanna like take a step back because you said something interesting about getting on there and prioritizing it and doing it with them. Because I happen to know a lot of people that would hate that. They’re like, wait, I have to be on a call with you for like three hours. So. It. Did you choose this medium because it’s better for you or that you think it’s better for your clients? Because when it comes to like going in someone’s course. Like evaluating the client experience, like, I’m not you. And you know, I, I don’t, I don’t think that’s my next job. I always joke around when I interview people, Hey,

in my next life, that’s gonna be my next

job. But I think that I could totally do that in a way that I used to do it when I was a college professor. And basically go into people’s classes, look at the curriculum, make notes, and then make the suggestions.

And then if they say, okay, that’s good, then you could just do it behind the scenes. So what’s the benefit to you first?

Doing it synchronously instead of asynchronously.

Emily: So it’s a great question and I do think because it’s a newer offer, you know, you’re kind of always testing and I may find after a couple, you know, more clients are gonna be like, no, we’re not doing it this way. And that’s totally fair. And I’m, you know, always willing to adapt that or make it hybrid. My thought behind doing it this way is the majority of my clients are neurodivergent and.

You get this, you know, really good dopamine rush when you like have a planning session with someone, you map something out, you get this like ding, ding, ding of clarity and you’re like, oh my God, it’s amazing. You get off that, like you get off that call and you’re like, oh my God. Like you’re like your energy tanks or you’re just, you get distracted by something.

\ And I just find. You lose that? Hmm. That feeling that you get when you’re like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Unless you do something at that moment. And it doesn’t even have to be building everything out at that moment. And I don’t honestly think that’s realistic in even a three hour thing.

For me, it’s, we’ve mapped it out enough that you have it outlined in the actual like course platform, so you know where to start next, right? Or we’ve put it in whatever task management system you use. We’ve made extra notes, we’ve linked where things are at. You’ve maybe done a voice note or two to yourself for when you pick back up.

So it’s really not, the goal isn’t to have everything done in three hours. Otherwise I would do a typical VIP day, but it’s more so you don’t. Lose that momentum. You can you, we’ve set you up in a way that you can pick it up and finish it.

Colie: See, and I thought you were gonna say something different, so I’m gonna

kick in what I thought, and then

maybe this is just in the back of your mind as well.

I feel like there’s this ever-growing trend right now towards micro wins, and I

feel like if you’re on a call with someone and you’re discussing something and then you know, you’ve made a decision. It might take them 30 minutes to an hour to go and do it themselves, but us as tech people and strategy people we’re like, no, I can just take 10 minutes and fix that for you. I feel like the faster that you can give your people the micro wins, especially when it comes to client experience and tech and things that are, you

know, people think are very difficult.

They will be more motivated to take the next step. So I, I mean, I know that from my own experience, because when I started doing systems in session, I don’t know how familiar you are with my program, but I offer two different types of support. They can either submit a support ticket in which I will record like a Loom video while I’m doing it for them. There are some people who prefer that,

and then there are other people who just book a 20 minute call with me, get on, and we do it together,

and I’m one of those people. If I’ve told you to do something, I literally have Airtable, you know, ’cause we both

love Airtable reminders. I get Airtable pings if I haven’t heard from you in a week.

And

then basically the message that I send you is, how’s this coming along?

If you haven’t made any progress, you need to schedule an SOS call so that we can at least start. The next part of this

process because then once, you know, sometimes they get stuck and

they’re so stuck that they can’t even submit the support ticket.

But if I get you live on a call, oh, you’re

gonna tell me what the problem is, I’m gonna spend like 10 of our 20 minutes getting you started. And then I’ll be like, okay, so can you take it from here? Or do we

need another call? But, so I think micro wins is

like a big part of, you know, working with people especially, I mean, I. I myself need the micro wins now more than I

ever have. 

Emily: Yeah, no, that’s a great point. And I think, you know, my brain is now buzzing with everything you’re saying. so we’re just gonna do an offer development right here, right now. but I like having people having the choice. Some people really do want to jump on a call, and talk it out because they need to brain dump, you know?

And what they thought they were clear on, maybe they’re not, But some people, like you’re saying, could give me a brain dump, record it, whatever, and then give me access. And I would be happy to go in that way because I am really nosy and I love being in the back end of people’s businesses and being like, okay, what do we got going on here?

You know? So it’s interesting. I think there’s pros and cons to both, and I think it’s just different people too, you know? if you’re a doer like Emily Williams, she’s a doer. She can just get it done. Like that’s, yeah. So that’s why it’s easy for me to do, like. Strategy sessions with her, and by the time we’re done, she’s mapped out her entire course, her podcast, her marketing plan, like everything, and it’s in her systems.

But there’s also people who maybe are a little bit more like me, who are like, I need to talk it out, see the whole picture, and I need to know what my first steps are, like point by point, so that when I start to spiral, when we get off this call, I can just be like, no. A habit, this is it, you know? And so I think there’s a lot of value in offering, uh, options.

So 

Colie: I mean, I’ve even started doing that with my

systems and session people. When we get off a call, even if I know there are four things that you need to do, I only tell you the first one. Like I send you, I send you one of my little.

Notes and Airtable, and I’m like, hi Emily. This is your next task.

If you need a template to do it, if you need like a how to video or whatever, I quickly record it.

I go grab the link to the template. I send that all to you, and I say, when you are done,

send me a support ticket so that I can review it.

Give you feedback and then give you your next task, even though technically we’ve already decided the next four

things that you’re doing. But I have found that in this container, I do have to piecemeal it out.

And it’s

funny, when I was looking at sold out sessions, I told Emily, I was like, yeah, I, I have to have calls.

Because the thing that drives me most insane is when I ask a question and then I have to wait for the response.

Like, I need the live because I am such a doer. If you just answer my question, I can go get it done in 15 minutes and then I’m done.

But if I ask you the question, and then I gotta sit and wait like three or four days for your response, I mean, I have already sp spiraled,

figured it out myself, and moved on to the next

Emily: Yeah. You’re like, thanks I got this. You know? And that’s why I don’t like. Jumping on random calls, like if I had a session, like people could just book ones throughout my week, that might drive me a little crazy. I like being in boxer, so if someone has something like that, we’re talking about Emily a lot, but Emily has literally sent me boxers.

I’m just gonna dump this and. You get back to me. Thanks. And you know, and that’s just how it is. When she’s spiraling or she has an idea, then I can just immediately come back. Here’s what I would do, here’s the steps. I already went into your Google Drive. This is where it’s at. Like, I love doing that. Which is kind of what you’re talking about.

And I do think there’s something really powerful about having that support. And I have considered, instead of doing it as a VIP day, doing it more like a back pocket kind of thing, you know, where like we do an initial planning session. And then you have me in your back pocket for like a month.

Colie: Yes.

I think that’s, since you said we were gonna do offer development, I mean, we could sit here and price that I.

Emily: Well, I actually already have that mapped out. It’s called the Launch It Sprint, and it’s currently linked in my Instagram bio for 7 77.

Colie: Yes, which I saw that and I was like, why the 7, 7, 7?

Is it like a 

Emily: Seven’s my favorite. Sevens are my favorite number. And I was just like, I like that. It’s fun. but yeah, no, that is my version of this where it’s like we have the planning and then you have me in your back pocket, we’ve decided on something and you have me for accountability, those midnight spirals, all that kind of stuff.

So that’s kind of my version of it. I just haven’t.

Colie: So, I mean, I’m gonna bring back the conversation around the outsourcing

’cause I think we got away from it, but I’m okay ’cause the

Emily: It’s okay. It’s okay. Yeah.

Colie: but. So what is it that someone like me might come to you to outsource? Knowing that I’m a doer. I mean, you don’t know what my human design is, but I’ve recently figured out I’m a manifester. And it’s really funny because ever since I did a call with Brianna Owen where she told me what my, human design was, and she was telling me all about manifesters. I was like, okay. So you’ve basically just given me permission to say fuck it and just tell everybody what to do. So I feel like now I tell. My, blog writer who is also my email copywriter, like, I can’t count the number of things that I have told her to do in the last two weeks that I would not have done before. But ever since Brianna was like, no. Like, you get these ideas and you need them to be acted upon, but you are not the person that has to actually do them.

And I’m like. Yes, you are fucking right. So what would someone like me want to outsource to someone like you? Because the thing is, all of our other conversations on this podcast about outsourcing have been about editing your photos, outsourcing your

bookkeeping, hiring a coach, like the things that we really think of.

But I don’t think that we ever really come around to the conversation of, once you get to a certain level. You’ve probably already outsourced all those things because I do have a very, I

have a deep, I have a deep roster,

but like, what else would I want to outsource like in the future as I continue to grow my business?

Emily: Well off the top of my head, ’cause you haven’t mentioned it and you probably have it in your deep team, but I would say, have you had someone externally look at your client experience?

Colie: Hmm.

No. 

Emily: Because I think we’re really close to it, you know? And I think if you’re someone who has all those ideas and you execute on them fast, like having someone, and I don’t.

Let’s be real. Someone who’s like you, who’s been in this business and done all these things, you probably don’t need to outsource. And there is a point when you have a certain amount of team, you need more like the mentors, the the people who are gonna help you get from the level you’re at to the next level.

That’s not what I do, and I’m fine with that. But if there was anything, it would be, you know, maybe 

Colie: No, I’m, I’m totally not gonna argue with you. And, you know, there’s, there’s a running joke with like Dubsado certified specialists. You know, Hey, I tell you what to do with yours. Don’t come look at mine. Now I will say my Dubsado account is. Is very clean and nice though. But it doesn’t mean that it’s like that year round.

I mean,

I would say quarterly,

um, bi-annually, like I tell all my clients, I hop in there and I do look at my emails mostly because if I’m gonna lecture my clients on it, I wanna make sure that, you know, my shit is

Emily: Walk your walk. Yeah.

Colie: But most recently, what you’re talking about, it’s so interesting because I am literally going through systems in session. Basically been live for a little bit more than six months, and the number of things that I have improved in the onboarding, and I was actually, I just sent a support ticket to Emily talking about the next phase of what I wanted to do because everybody who’s come into systems and session listens to my podcast

and I’m like, I want to create a better onboarding process.

And I think that I wanna do it as a podcast so that they can listen to me, tell them the things that they need before we actually jump into the doing. I

want them. To have something that mentally prepares them for what we are gonna work on together.

And I don’t think that before that was very important.

Not that it’s not a good thing, but like literally everybody who’s jumped into systems in session, they started within a week or two.

But right now I sold seven seats

and these people do not start. For like another two to three months.

And so it’s like this, Hey, they were really excited to work with me, but also you’ve got two to three months.

Like, 

Emily: don’t leave them hanging. 

Colie: Exactly. So I am in the middle of thinking about this, Emily. I.

Emily: Yes. And I think that’s the thing is when you first launch something and you’re, you have the space and people can just start really fast or you know, you’re in the middle of a live launch, if it’s a group program and people have joined, but someone saw that and they didn’t get to join that cohort, but they wanna sign it for the next one.

I’ve been that person, and then you’re like, yay, I bought something that’s not gonna start for two months, and I have nothing. And I think it just gets, like I said, pushed down the list. I usually find the people I’m working with on their client experience, if we’re going by like freshmen, sophomore, they’re more like sophomores in their business.

They’ve had a couple of these offers come out. They’ve had group programs or whatever. Um. They’re finding people aren’t staying, they’re finding people aren’t giving them testimonials. They’re finding like that things just aren’t working the same. And more often than not, if it’s not a systems issue, ’cause let’s be real, both systems people, it might be a systems issue.

 but more often than not, they’re not asking for these things. They’re not building the experience to the point that someone knows if they’re stuck here, go here. Like that was one of the things I built out with Emily this morning and her program was like you’ve mentioned, you know, the support ticket and how they can use it.

I guarantee you just the name support ticket, they’re not thinking of using it the way you’re intending them to use it. So every lesson give them a for instance of how they could use a support ticket if they’re stuck.

Colie: Yes.

Emily: Link it again. And I think it’s just sometimes you’re so close to it, you’re like, this is so obvious.

And sometimes you just need that fresh perspective of, no, you’re missing this is what is this, this doesn’t make sense and let’s put something in here. And so, yeah, I think we all can use that at different points. And especially the further you get into an offer, the more you’re like, how can I make this even better for this round?

Colie: I feel like for the last six months I have basically been collecting all of these

things because it was new and I

was improving and like one of the things that I ended up creating, and it was funny, it, I created it for them because I wanted it.

When you submit support tickets and you do these SOS calls and you do all this, like, I get tired of searching for shit in my inbox.

Like,

oh my gosh, what did she say in this? Let me

go find it. So I went into softer and built

my people a database so that now they can see their calls and their tickets

altogether so that it’s one place.

And now they get every single email that they get from me sent in Airtable gives their specific

link at the bottom. Something else that I thought of. you kind of mentioned it, but I feel like. The first six people that went through the program, they were very unclear for the first half of their 60 days when to schedule a call and when to do a support ticket. And so part of my onboarding process now is literally the last thing that I say on that call is, and just so that you know. This is when you should submit a support ticket and this is when you should do a

call. And then I say, listen, if you submit a support ticket and I can’t answer it without a call, I will let you know.

But like, these are the things that you can do for either. And I just thought it was clear as shit, which one you did, but you know, then I realized there was one person who said, oh, I didn’t realize that I could schedule that many calls. Really? But I told you three times and I know that I did, but maybe you didn’t hear me. I needed to make sure that you saw it like

in a hub or in an email or so. I am also trying to make sure that I am communicating the information in different ways,

because when you tell some people some things, they just don’t hear you.

Emily: No, and that’s the thing is that’s one of my other things where I’m looking at client experience is. If this works, because it works for how your brain works, that’s great, but not everybody who’s gonna come through your offer is gonna have the same way of processing things. So especially now with the tech being where it’s at, offer podcast feeds for your videos.

Not everyone wants to sit the 

Colie: I did that in my email course, and

honestly, it’s the best thing. And I was like, Ooh, the next iteration of the blueprint, I’m gonna do it because I made the lessons in a different way. There were slides,

but I literally just used the slides to keep me on track. I was

not saying anything. There wasn’t anything on the slide that I wasn’t saying out loud.

So they don’t need to watch the

videos. They can really like listen to me talk about the importance of client

communication while they drive around in their

car, while they do the dishes.

And so that was a big aha moment for me ’cause I really enjoyed listening to my own course back

and I was like, I need this in everything now.

Emily: Yes. And now that we have all these tools, it’s seriously so easy to do that. And I mean, you could have done that even prior. I always have my Zoom set up. I got the video and the audio recording because I don’t like to watch myself, so I didn’t want the video recording. But it’s not even just that.

It’s like having someone look at it with fresh eyes. I’m like, I see how this makes sense ’cause I understand how your brain works, but I’m telling you right now, someone who’s coming into this. They need it spelled out. Even if it’s as simple as like, instead of just doing text, give me a, but give me bold text.

Like you really have to think about it. Like, I have to not assume people coming in have the context for what I’m saying. Like, you have to take out all, all assumptions. They know how to use, you know, AI prompts. Don’t assume like it’s this, it’s, it’s just like you have to like take it out. So that way. No matter who’s in your program, they have tools to make it work.

Colie: Yeah, so let’s just go on this client experience

trail one more time. ’cause I feel like now this episode is gonna be focused on this,

so. What are the other things that you look at when you go into someone’s course service, whatever it is, in terms of client experience. I mean, I think we all really focus on the onboarding, and you and

I have already like slightly mentioned the offboarding, but are there any other things that you like really look at when you’re evaluating someone’s client experience and telling them how they could make it a better experience, not only for themselves but for their client?

Emily: Yes. So my number one thing is the midway point when you, when people are, have lost some of that excitement. And they haven’t seen the finish line. Maybe they’ve had a couple little wins, whatever, but it’s, what could we put in here? If you’ve, if you’ve had people reach out, they, or they’re getting stuck at a certain point, if you’ve had more than one person get stuck at a certain point, there’s something that needs to be added before that.

And I mentioned it to Emily, the first iteration of her, sold out services and I was like, you need to offer a call. ’cause there’s places people are gonna get stuck and you know, not everybody’s like, oh cool, here’s this instructions. And I can go do like, you know, we, we get in our heads sometimes and so I found by the time you’ve run something.

A couple times at least with, I mean, a couple clients at least you’re seeing patterns, you’re seeing, uh, I really got stuck there. I really had to nudge them hard here. Okay. Do they need a new tool, a new template? Do they need a call? Like, what, what’s missing here? Um, so for me it’s more, they’re usually missing in the middle,

Colie: The messy middle,

which is hysterical that you’re saying that because it seems like that’s the same for people who are doing group programs

and services. Because one of the things that I have tried to emphasize to all of my photographers, so photographers, please listen to this one more time. I actually call it the messy middle.

It’s the part where they’ve booked you,

they’ve paid you the money, but you haven’t actually done the session yet. It’s like, what do you do with those people? And some people are like, oh, well, you know, I send them a prep guide and I send them a questionnaire. Okay. That’s lovely. If they’ve booked you three to four weeks in advance,

but if they’ve booked you five months in advance or even a whole year in advance, like wedding photographers,

what are you doing?

I’m

not saying that you have to be their best friend. I’m not saying that you have to

email them every week, but it should not be months since they’ve heard from you, related to their photography

session. And so like I have spent. Calls with people like, okay, but like, what information could we give them?

What checkpoints could we do? Um, and it’s just so interesting that you are seeing the same thing in

like other types of services and group programs.

Emily: Yeah, and it’s funny, I just did that with a wedding photographer, like mapped out that messy middle part because, and you know, and I think it’s no different, especially service providers. I think, you know, if you’ve been working for someone, maybe you’re in a retainer situation, let’s be honest. You get to a point of like kind of comfort.

Colie: I mean, it just feels like you’re on the wheel,

Emily: you’re on the wheel, things are running. That’s the time you should be asking for feedback. Because it’s either gonna be a testimonial or it’s gonna be like, actually I really wanna add this thing. Okay, great. Let’s talk that out. And I think we just miss it because like another honest moment, like who wants to take the chance that someone’s gonna say something bad and that’s a real thing.

But I think. It’s something I look back on when I had a retainer client. I had worked with her for like over two years and I’m like, I look back at points. I’m like, okay, I see where there were points that I could have pushed harder on something. To get a call, a feedback thing, you know, because you need it.

And I see it so much in offers, even just as like a consumer. And I’m just like, what is happening? I opened your email that none of these links work. Where, what am I supposed to do?

Colie: Okay. So, I mean, but like that

Emily: That’s a 

Colie: all the time. Yes. And um, I’m always battling with myself whether or not I tell you to fix it. ’cause I had one very bad experience

when I told someone that I hired to fix their shit and they refunded me.

So I was a little gun shy,

but like recently I hired a copywriter.

And she uses Dubsado. She did

not hire me to set it up, so I don’t know

if she DIY it or somebody helped her, but, um, the first thing that she said on her confirmation page is, you know, you will get an email and you’ll be able to add to calendar. And then I got her email and it wasn’t on there. So then I had to go manually add it to my calendar and copy and paste the zoom link. And so. Then I was in her program and I got another email that didn’t have an add to calendar. So when I got on that call, I was like, girl, so just so that you know, you need to go put the smart field in your email so that I can actually get an add to calendar.

And she was like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.

I’m like, yeah. I just, I never know how people are gonna react,

but I find something that somebody can fix every time I hire them.

Emily: I mean, it’s, it’s true. I mean, I’ve even seen it, not someone I’ve purchased from, but in the bundles that are really popular right now, and they’re great. I like, I love seeing them. I’m a junkie for information. I’m not gonna lie to you. I have so much. But what kills me is I, you’re losing an opportunity.

It’s more like, I’m like so sad for them because you’ve agreed to be a part of this bundle. And there’s a list of people I go to click on your thing and it gives me a 4 0 4 page. You’ve just lost how many leads.

Colie: Jamie told me, one of the summits that I did recently, she went to go get my thing and she’s like, Colie, just so that you know, this is 4 0 4. And the reason that it did it for me was chat. GPT had changed it from public to private,

and so it wasn’t working for them. But yes, I mean, you know, if you’re gonna do the shit, at least make sure that it works so that you can get the value.

Emily: Yes. And I used to offer like a tech check audit for that. I mean, I had so many people that it was just simple things like, and I get, you know, for me and you, it’s probably really automatic double check that every link is working. Like in Incognito we like browsers all the things, right? Like we are checking, but I know it’s not, you know, default.

I 

Colie: nature to everybody. Yes. 

Emily: I sent. And I posted about this and I got a lot of reactions to it, but last year I sent a video message to someone I, not in their world, not a customer, not a client, nothing. I kept seeing their ad in my feed, and for three days the link didn’t work. I was like, you are literally wasting money.

And I just can’t sit here and not say I just couldn’t. So I like sent her a video message so she knew I wasn’t like spamming her, you know? I was like, Hey, hi, love your stuff. Just like 

Colie: so that you know. 

Emily: just so you know, this ad that’s running and I gave her a screenshot. ’cause you run multiple different types of ads, right?

I was like, this is the copy, this is the creative that was coming to me each time I opened it. This link didn’t work. Wanted to let you know. And then she fixed it. I was like, cool. Great. Like, it was no ulterior motive. It’s like a tick in my brain. I can’t, I just can’t.

Colie: So Emily, human design, what’s

your motivator? 

Emily: My motivator. Um,

Colie: asking is I have guilt motivation. I

have not explored my entire human design, but Brianna told me that I have guilt motivation and literally why I tell people to fix their shit is I feel guilty if I don’t, like,

I feel compelled to tell them what they should do. Otherwise I feel guilt and I, it’s, it makes me very unaligned or I don’t know what phrase she used, but basically. It’s part of my human design is why I tell people to fix their shit.

Emily: Oh, interesting. Mine. Uh, yeah, mine says frustration is like my, not like, so if I’m frustrated, I’m not in alignment, I think is what that means. Again, not an HD person, so take it with a grain of salt, but then it says, satisfaction might be one of my motivators.

Colie: Well then you’re satisfied when other people are doing well

and their ads are working 

Emily: Yeah, like, like, I mean, again, human design is not my thing. I’ve really, last year got into Enneagram, so I know 

Colie: have an episode on that too. I, I’m an eight. I have eight or three. Yes.

Emily: One of those with the 

Colie: they’re really, they’re really close.

Um, like they 

Emily: I’m a five.

Colie: a point. And honestly it was really weird because I had Enneagram, Ashton on my podcast,

and what I realized is that I am an eight when it comes to like business.

That kind of thing.

But the three comes out when it doesn’t have anything to do with business. I mean, you know, you’re,

you’re one. But I realized when I was like answering the questions, I was answering them very differently for what I do as like

a business owner versus what I do as like a wife, a mother, a human.

Um, so I find all of this very

fascinating. I’m not, woo, I’ve said

this multiple times, but I do find this shit fascinating.

Emily: I do too, because there’s so much overlap in, I mean, especially with the Enneagram and I was a, I found out I was a type five and it’s, I was like, of course I am. Like the

Colie: that the 

Emily: gather? No, it’s the information gather. 

Colie: information? Gatherer. 

Emily: like my core motivation is being seen as competent.

Like,

Colie: Okay.

Emily: and unlike what you’re talking about, mine is not different for personal or business. Like I’m the person my friends come to when they need to like problem solve or solve something. Like I’m the person who figures it out, so I, it makes sense. But yeah, I see people with links broken or something. I can’t not say something.

I just cannot. I’m like, it’s really, it’s a simple fix. It’s just, it’s costing you more things than you think.

Colie: The very first YouTube video that I made that wasn’t related to photography, it was instructing people on how you set up your custom domain in Dubsado.

Because I was tired of telling people,

why are you sending out links that say, hello Dubsado? So I made the video, I explained it in less than five minutes, you know,

showed them how to do it. And then in Facebook groups for the longest, every time someone posted a link, I would go and I would be like, Hey, just so that you know, I don’t wanna see Dubsado and your clients don’t either.

Here’s my video, Can you imagine me doing that? I, I

know you 

Emily: I can. I can, I can. Yeah, no, for sure.

Colie: Okay, so let’s wrap this up in terms

of client experience. So

you’ve, we’ve mentioned that, you know,

yes, you should pay attention to your onboarding. It’s how you keep your clients interested. It’s how you, you know, start the experience right. We’ve also talked about the fact that when you’re offboarding or you’re coming to the end of your experience, you should be paying attention to how they feel so that you can figure out if there’s another offer that’s good for them. And then the big elephant in the room is the messy middle. That is when you can take an experience that might not be going

so well for somebody and kind of flip it on its head so

that at the end of the experience, they are going to give you a rave review instead of just being meh. On

your experience, is there anything else that we should like hit on in terms of client experience?

Emily: I don’t know. I feel like that’s the big one is you know how to get people from, I’m so excited. I just purchased this thing all the way through. Whatever your thing you’re offering, service, photography, whatever the goal is for them to have from this experience, they get that. And you’ve collected the data, the testimonial.

I mean, that’s. Like, that’s it right there. So I mean, yeah.

Colie: selfishly, the

other reason that I love the SOS calls,

uh, I don’t, I, I told Emily and I, I think I mentioned it on a group call, but I’m not a hundred percent. One of the things that I, I bit my tongue so hard, right? One time at bbl. Um, I have noticed that several of my clients get on their. 20 minute SOS calls and they start telling me about all their wins

and it is so hard for me to not interrupt and tell them how proud I am or ask questions.

I literally purse my mouth and stare at the computer and like basically count in my head like, don’t interrupt them, don’t interrupt them. Don’t. Because that is where you get a lot of the gold. It’s where you get

a lot of your great testimonials because yes, you can ask them for a testimony at the end. But when they are actually telling you about the win right after it fucking

happened and you’re recording their actual words, that’s the gold.

It’s not when they fill out your form at the end

Emily: No. And in fact I would strongly suggest if you rely on forms in any fashion, that you give a note at the top. For people who don’t like filling out forms, like typing and say, you literally can like do a voice dictation and Google Docs answer the questions, copy and paste, because one, you’re gonna get so much better re responses.

Because it’s literally gonna be them voice, you know, talking. But two, if someone opens up a form, a lot of times it’s, oh, there’s so many questions. You know what I mean?

Colie: my.

Emily: You know, like, to be fair, and so I actually, I had Emily do that to her, a couple of her forms today too. I was like, just put the caveat, not everybody knows those tools are available or thinks about it when a form’s in front of them and it’s so simple for them to just like, okay, question two, blah blah, answer, copy, paste.

Colie: Yeah. All right, Emily, if people wanna hear more about you and like,

especially your sprint, that’s 7, 7, 7, you know,

get, get behind the scenes in their

business. Be nosy as fuck. Where can they find you?

Emily: Instagram threats. That’s, I mean, I still have half a website maybe, but 

Colie: a 

Emily: on, it’s not really a website, 

Colie: now, is it your name or is it Strategic Impact?

Emily: It’s my name, Emily Mathis.

Colie: Well guys, I will have all of these linked in the show notes. And Emily, thank you so much for joining me. I

mean, I know at some point, although I will say guys, we rescheduled many times, but it was not actually it, it was half and half,

which is very unusual.

Um, but like we were supposed to record a few weeks ago and I was like, gosh, Emily, I’m so sorry, but I woke up and I feel like shit, so we’re gonna have to reschedule again. And I didn’t even feel a little bad

because she had already rescheduled on

Emily: Yes. I gave you the permission ’cause I had already done it.

Colie: Yes, but I’m gonna have all of her contact information linked in the show notes, and I just wanna say from both Emily and I that if you have not looked at your client experience. In the last, let’s say, quarter. I mean, you know, if we have to go out to six months, I guess we can, but if you have not looked at your client experience in that amount of time, I want you to put some time on your calendar to do it. I’m not saying drop everything and do it today, but put an hour on your calendar so that you can go through.

Some of your service, you know, emails, your actual container, all of those things so that you can improve your client experience a little bit. And if you need help from like the service side or the group program side, I’m sure one of us can help you.

Emily: One of us 

Colie: One of us can. All right everybody, that’s it for this episode. See you next time.