The client experience consists of every interaction your business has with your audience and possible clients before & after they inquire about your services. In this episode, I chat with copywriter and Chief Creative Officer Christina Torres of Run & Tell That about how to create messaging that connects with your clients on the front-end and back-end of your business. After listening, please head over to the Best, Regards podcast for Part II of this series.
The Business-First Creatives Podcast is brought to you by CRM and Dubsado expert Colie James. Join Colie each week as she discusses how to build a business that brings you joy and a paycheck! From business advice with fellow entrepreneurs to sharing automation tips and tricks, Colie and her guests are sharing industry trends and resources, along with a little bit of sarcasm.
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Guest Bio:
Christina Torres is a Brooklyn born and made sales page copywriter, messaging strategist and founder of Run and Tell That Dot Co. Through her 1-1 work, consulting, and hilarious online presence, she helps customer obsessed D2C products and service based brands embrace their Big Deal Energy, by turning the ~vibes~ that make them so magnetic into crazy compelling, customer- focused messaging strategy.
She’s been featured on podcast like the Copywriter Club, Sh*t We Do For Love, Part-Time Millionaire and virtual stages like the Copy Chat. When she’s not writing for amazeball brands like The Doux, The Hive, Marisa Corcoran, and Oxford Comma, her newest partnership she’s playing Mindcraft with her son or scarfing down roof melting pizza by the beach.
For more from Christina, her real talk copy and biz advice or to learn more about embracing your Big Deal Energy, stop by runandtellthat.co or tune into her podcast Best Regards wherever you get your podcast.
Here are the highlights…
[01:18] Meet Christina
[04:10] Maximizing Message Relevancy in Real Time Marketing
[13:32] Crafting Effective Sales Page Messaging Strategy
[17:40] Adjusting Your Website Messaging: A Moving Target
[28:24] Copywriting Tip #:1 Don’t Write in a Vacuum
[32:07] Copywriting Tip #2: Embrace Your Personality for Colorful Copywriting
[36:02] Done is Better Than Perfect: Tips for DIY Copywriting
[46:03] Creating Copy Without Systems in Place
Connect with Christina:
Website
Instagram
Best Regards, Podcast Apple Spotify
Review the Transcript:
Colie: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Business First Creatives podcast. Today’s episode is going to be a little different. I am chatting with my friend Christina Torres, and we are gonna be covering subjects all about brand messaging, copy, websites, and CRMs. You are going to hear part one of this conversation here on the Business First Creatives podcast, while part two is gonna be over on Christina’s podcast. Best regards,
Good morning, Christina. Why don’t you tell everyone who you are and what you do?
Christina: Sure. Good morning. And thank you for saying my name like that. I haven’t had someone say my name like that since like high school. And so funny, she was a nun, but she taught English, like I guess English at the college level. So if that’s any indication that I was like, okay, fine, I’m gonna do my work and I’m gonna go to sleep.
But she always said my name. Sister, Sister Joan, Christina Torres. And she was definitely Irish Catholic. So I was like, that’s right, you say my name as mean as she was, it made me, it made me closer to her. So full, full circle. I am a copywriter. Um, and most importantly a sales page and legacy copywriter. What does that mean?
Websites, right? The stuff that, and I say legacy cause I want people to realize like it’s not something you stick up there and you forget about it. I just threw it up there. No, this is a place that’s gonna be there and is gonna go through as many iterations and changes as you are, um, copywriter for copywriters, consultants and coaches cuz they’re the folks who, who need it the most and are drowning the most.
And that’s usually the last thing that they think about, um, delegating for some reason, and I have an inkling why, um, and it’s probably mostly my fault. Because I wrote a lot of copy that said you don’t need that. But anyway, um, yeah, that’s what I do and I’ve been doing it for about on and off for about four years.
So we’re trying to get them into that mindset, um, through copywriting, through messaging and like you said a little bit and get them to the uns sexier part, which is, I think your part is very sexy
Colie: Now see, Christina, I I was gonna interrupt you cuz I’m like, no, my part is totally sexy. Systems are sexy.
Christina: Love it. I love that part. I just wish my brain can execute it. That’s another story, but I understand why it’s so needed and why it’s so needed. So we’re trying to get them, that’s my mission, is to get people to hiring and investing more on themselves and seeing, um, hiring copywriters, seeing people like you as a form of self-care, um, and self-preservation and growth, and not as a, oh, no, no, this is, I can just do it myself.
Colie: Yes. Well, so for those that don’t know me, I’m Colie James. I am a systems queen. I loved Dubsado, but I do do everything in systems and I am like the back half of what Christina does. So Christina helps you with your messaging and what I call the front end of your business. That’s what people see before they actually inquire with you, your social media, your website, everywhere that your messaging is, she can help you with that.
And once you get the inquiry on the back end, that’s where I come in to make sure that the client experience is seamless. And amazing. So the way that this conversation is gonna work is Christina and I are gonna talk to you a little bit about messaging, because messaging is what is not, um, it’s not static.
Like if you write messaging and you think that your messaging is gonna last you two years, four years, five years, that’s just not a thing. Neither one of us are set it and forget it kind of people. So Christina, what is the one thing that you feel like everybody misses the mark on when it comes to writing their messaging, whether it’s on a website or social media, or just the way that they talk to people about the service that they offer?
Like what’s the thing that’s missing the mark?
Christina: Um, few things. I’ll start with three.
Colie: Okay.
Christina: I think first is, um, to your point, there’s a lot of like, we’ll, we’ll be technical about it. There’s a lot of data that we’re using that’s already old, right? So that messaging and those problems, um, are, may not be, what’s the problem this quarter? Or the problem this week, or the problem this month.
And we have to really kind of key in to like, what are these, these desires, these problems that the audience that we know is going to buy right now? Like we, we just need to be on the lookout for them. We can’t be on the lookout for them every year when we do a retrospective or
Colie: Mm-hmm.
Christina: I don’t know, whatever, whatever we ask for feedback.
That’s not when we should wait for it. We should actually do a little bit more hunting in real time, in real life, on people’s posts, on, um, I actually find one of the greatest places to look for messaging is where I call the haters. So like I work with people, that means you’re pretty big when you’ve got like haters, like spending their time in YouTube.
And you’re like, Ooh, what are these haters saying? Yeah, this is, this is what’s on top of mine. Right? Because good news is usually, is very, is not the quickest out, it’s usually like the bad news. So I love to, like, we wanna look for stuff that’s been happening in real time and we wanna get it into our front end as soon-ish as possible, right?
And I think that’s how we have to look at it too. Where is this messaging going? Because it is a little different if someone, um, it really matters where you meet this pe where you meet these people in their journey, but also like where you actually meet them. And so like on a first date, you wouldn’t be like, Hey, take your shirt off.
Like, what? And you’re like, I just wanna see what you’re working with. And you’re like, oh, that’s kind of rude. You should like, wanna learn a little bit more about me and you maybe do a little bit more storytelling. And so like, you have to like realize where, what part of. Where people are meeting you is what part of the date that you’re on, what part of the relationship really.
And I know that’s hard, like when you, when you’re thinking about online, cuz you’re like, well, it’s not one person I’m having a relationship with. Like everyone. No, it is one person. There is, uh, an ideal. Right? That’s why it’s called a, like you’re a marketing, there’s a target and unfortunately that target’s always moving.
Colie: It
Christina: But if we can get it, if we can get it as close to the middle as possible, I think that happens. Um, more when we’re thinking about in real time. And I would say the last thing is, uh, this is kind of tricky. That copy is not just nice words. It’s not just things that sound good together. Um, I, I use, I remember when I first came in, I.
The door, and I couldn’t tell why the word wordsmith cringed. Like, what is that? Um, I used and I used to, I used to be everywhere. Word ninja word smith, where, and I’m like, but what are you? And I think it’s a little bit of a misnomer writing because copywriters are more like messaging architects. I’m not creating words out of the blue.
I’m not just putting a bunch of words that I think sound really nice or really impressive. They’re actually words that are already being said over, over and over and over and over again that obviously are really resonating and really like hitting somewhere, someone in the fields. And what I’m supposed to do is not sell your product.
That’s not my job. Your job is to sell. My job is to connect what people desire and what they wanna like, their final destination and how your product is the vehicle to get them there. That’s all I’m, that’s all I’m really there to do. Like, you have to sell, you have to come up with the offer. I do sometimes do a little bit of like, mm, let me, so what, let me tell you devil’s advocate, and I’m gonna hit you with this objection.
What is, like, what are you gonna do? And sometimes that doesn’t mean adding something to the offer or taking something out the offer, like kind of in mid process.
They’re like, oh yeah. I’m like, this is, I don’t think anyone’s gonna give an f about this. And, um, I think they’re not, it doesn’t, I don’t know.
Let’s just think about, or add this again to the customer experience. I think people would really like this part. And if you’re kind of doing it, but you’re not showcasing it, I want us to lean on that. So it’s more about, um, yeah, it’s not about nice words. It’s actually about really boring words that you might think are boring.
Um, I do put some humor in my copy, some personality in my copy, but the idea is not to impress, I guess is what I’m trying to say. The idea is to meet people exactly where they are and they’re like, this is like, this is literally what I said the other day. Like literally, this is what I said the other day and it’s probably cuz you did and I found it.
Colie: I mean, so let’s talk, you’ve, you’ve mentioned two things that are really important to hit on. I think first you said you are just saying the words that people are saying over and over again, and so I do think that if someone tells you the same thing over and over again in a different avenue, that is something that you should pay attention to.
So while you are doing that, I think it’s equally as as important to pay attention to the people that hire you, what they say, and the people who don’t hire you. Because if the people who don’t hire you are saying the same thing over and over again, it could be that they’re not a fit for your. Product, your service, whatever it is that you do.
But it could also be that you are just not explaining how you would help their particular problem well enough for them to put two and two together. So that’s the first thing that I wanna just kind of highlight is yes, if you hear someone in your audience, whether they are a client or they are not a client, if you hear the same messaging over and over again, that is something that you should be addressing inside of your copy and inside of your messaging because they are telling you how they are perceiving your messaging and your offer.
And if it’s not what you perceived, if it’s not what you thought you were saying, you probably need to give it a little tweak. Yeah.
Christina: yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. And that’s where a love me, a good FAQ section, and I love an FAQ section that empowers someone to like make a decision. Either buy the thing or don’t buy the thing, right? But like in a more, sometimes I see FAQ sections and I’m just like, but why are you being such a D about it?
Like, you don’t just answer the question, you know what the question is answer in a way that is loving. And I love, I love a good, so I write FAQs to convert, right? So I wanna hit on those things, right? And that’s when I, a lot of that stuff I do with my clients, cuz I know why I may not buy something from you and I’m usually writing your copy cuz I really want what you have anyway.
Um, I find it a lot easier to write copy for things I want than for things I don’t. Um, so I’m like, why never would stop me? And so I’d be like, let me stop you right here. Let’s say like, I don’t wanna do this this way, or I have something like this, or I’ve never been able to finish a course, or I’ve never like what I’m like, tell me your honest answer and be as sassy and as effed up as you wanna be.
And don’t worry, I’ll, ill turn it around. I’ll
put a little
sugar.
Colie: I wouldn’t want you to turn it around. You should read some of my FAQs, one of my FAQs, and it’s actually my favorite. And I had someone say, did someone actually ask you that? I put, you’re probably wondering if this course is worth the price tag. It totally is. And then I have a whole answer as to why I am totally worth what I am
Christina: right.
Colie: And I have a, I have a client testimonial that ties it in. That’s like, you know, I’ve bought a lot of things that were worthless in the photography industry, but Colie’s course is 100% worth it. You know, blah, blah, blah.
Christina: That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
Colie: put that out there, uh, I had a copywriter that was like, yeah, no, I, this is, this is a little too much.
Like, did someone a, no one would ask you this? And I’m like, no. The point is that they wouldn’t ask me, but they’re thinking it. And I feel like my FAQs. Should address your internal thoughts like those, those questions that
are in the back of your mind that are actually preventing you from buying what I’m offering.
Because you are too scared to open your mouth. And I think that personally all the time, I find that if I’m looking at like this high ticket problem or not this high ticket problem, I find that if I’m looking at this high ticket offer and I’m like, okay, but this seems like it’s for beginners. And I’m not a beginner, so is it really worth the $6,000 price tag when I’m not gonna get as much out of it as someone who’s brand new doesn’t already have an offer that’s selling like all that good jazz.
And so I know myself, if these are questions that I have when I’m the shopper, people who are looking at my thousand dollars course or my $5,000 v i p day offer, they’re probably wondering, okay, this sounds really great, but like, is it actually worth $5,000? Like what am I gonna get on the other side of this offer?
And so I just feel like putting it out there and saying, yes, I’m worth it. And if you have any questions, click below and schedule a call and we can chat about it. I mean,
Christina: right. I love that. Yeah. And some people want that. Some people like, no, get us, get us up in there as humanly possible. And I’m like, sure. And then some people are like, I know this is what they’re thinking. And they do need tough love, but can you like, I don’t know.
It depends on their personality people.
Like, not nicer, but like, can we, can we sandwich it? You know, can we sandwich it like, all right, like, let’s bring you back to reality here. Um, you’ve done these things, they haven’t worked, and we need to look at like what, what the commitment is. And here are the, here are the things that we have in place to turn that around.
I think by the time someone gets to your, their FAQs, another thing, and this is totally not social, this is definitely, definitely sales pages and websites are a little different from social in that, in one page, we can be talking to different, at different points of their sales page. We can be talking to different people.
The same, the same vibe of person, but they’re different type of decision makers. Some people, all I need is a headline. You tell me what I’m getting. Like I’m a person who buys in the first, like the first quarter of your page. I’m an impulsive buyer. I know whether I want something or I don’t. Um, where I may get a little tricky is that when I’m like, okay, but like what’s in it?
So I move, I know because I write sales pages, people want to know what the results are and so that I can do what? Or can I do this without this? Or is this gonna, like, if there’s even one part of that thing, that person finds value, like this is worth it.
And that happens for me. I’m like, I just want it for this. I don’t, I don’t wanna talk to nobody in your Facebook group. I don’t want, I don’t want any parts of that. What I want is this, and you we’re done. We don’t have to. So, right. Like, I think that’s, by the time you get to the FAQs, you’re right. It’s one of these, these things that are like nagging at them, but they don’t quite know what it is.
Right. And so you’re like, you’re trying to be like, I know what you’re thinking, this and that and this, and you’re kind of, but you’re kind of reiterating and you don’t wanna answer stupid questions like logistic questions. That’s not what FAQs are for. And I, I used to work with so many yogis and a lot of product people, um, so like brick and mortar and product people, and always, always sounds like a logistics about like, returns.
I’m like, okay, fine. One or two. But everything else is about getting people to just try this thing. I don’t really, I don’t really care. They can contact your services or you need to have a. Just a return policy section. The FAQs is not for the, like, the FAQs is not for this part. So yeah, to your point, I think getting but getting really real with people and not being scared to like really write it all out.
And if you don’t have, I don’t recommend this for everyone, but I do like, Hey, if you still got questions, put it in here. Let me know because there may be something I’m missing. And
maybe like the privacy of throwing a little right. Of throwing like a little, all right, no one’s gonna see this, just them. I wanna know this question.
So, um, and by that point, if you made it all that way down and you wasn’t, you weren’t gonna buy right now anyway, so you might as well just tell me what you were gonna say. So I think, yeah, I think those little things and understanding that you’re talking just in a sales page, how many people you’re talking to already.
So it’s really more of an architect, because if I put the messaging in the wrong order,
Colie: Order. Mm-hmm.
Christina: Then no one, someone might not buy. And it may be the right, it may be the right words. I’m saying the right words. I’m hitting all these objections. I’m making it very clear what the value is. Um, you know, the about me, like who would not love this person?
Like everything about it’s right, but it’s maybe not in the right order, or this headline should be the tagline. And this tagline should be the subheader. So there’s a lot of like, um, yeah, there’s a lot of massaging and moving things around. It’s like designing a room
Colie: Yeah,
Christina: have all the same things in the room and you’re like, uh, but like you move things around and you’re like, how is that the same place?
Colie: I mean, I’m a little guilty of that. I had someone do some customer research for me and she was like, you know, you were already addressing everyone’s number one pain point, but you know, it was three quarters of the way down your sales page. So we just took, you know, that canvas and moved it up to, I think it went all the way up to like canvas number two, which is like, you know, right below, above the fold or whatever it is that you, that you website people say.
Um, and that just ended up being a great thing. Like, I didn’t know, I. That for the people that only read like a little bit down the sales page, that I just needed to address this one thing earlier, earlier so that they knew that this one pain point that all of my CRM systems people seemed to be experiencing.
And then I could get them to continue to work their way down the sales page, you know, with the testimonials and the features and the results and all that stuff. But I do wanna go back, Christina, because there’s one thing that you said that was really interesting and I feel like you and I are hitting like the same thing, or we’re saying the same thing over and over again.
And that is that your messaging is, it’s like a moving target. It is something that is gonna need to change depending on what is happening, like outside of your service, what’s happening in the real world. And one thing that you said was really interesting though, you said that you know, it’s not a set of, forget it.
And the moment that you see the messaging changing, you need to make updates. And the thing is, I used to update my website as a photographer. Like every single month, every time I got new images that I was more in love with, every time one of my clients gave me a really juicy testimonial, or they said something about my service that I hadn’t thought about before, like once a month, I was legitimately going on my website and making tweaks, and I did that for years.
I don’t do that anymore, but I do think that people are way more likely to adjust their messaging in social media because it’s just easier. Like, it’s easier to run on Instagram and post this one thing and call it a day versus going into your website, which most people you know, they, they dread it a lot and going in and making changes because they
think that it’s more complicated than it has to be.
So when you talk about adjusting your headlines, well actually you didn’t say headlines. I’m putting words in your mouth. When you talk about adjusting your messaging on your websites, what is it that you think people should be adjusting like on a monthly, on a quarterly basis?
Christina: Yeah, so that’s a good point. So I think on a monthly basis, and this is what I try to like, tell people, I’m like, granted, you’re not, you’re not the gap, right? You’re not gap and you’re not, um, I dunno, target, you can’t change, you don’t have a team of designers and developers who can change your website every 12 hours.
They changed their website like almost 12, every 12 hours. Um, I have, I had a ex-boyfriend who used to work for Uniqlo and that’s literally all he did was changed the messaging for them and like even the design. So imagine. Copy and design on a, on a 12 hour basis. Someone is changing that every 12 hours, um, because they get a lot of customer feedback and they have a lot of things happening all at once.
They have the money for that, but at least on a monthly basis. And I think this is really helpful to just, just check in. Definitely at least check in that stuff is working because sometimes you’re like the copy and the photos and you look and like a button doesn’t work and you’re like, uh. Right.
And I, and I say this and I think this is what happens. I’m not asking you. And this like, this is the extremes of human beings. They’re like, you want me to log into WordPress? You want me to, no, I want you to get used to, instead of people saying like, where can I find you? Instead of saying your Instagram, I’m gonna need you to start saying your website.
Colie: Yeah.
Christina: Because if you’re giving out your website more often, you’re visiting your website more often, and every now and then you’re gonna be like, Hmm, I don’t like the way this sits on mobile. I don’t like the way this, I, hmm, this is, this ain’t it. This isn’t it for me. So I think without getting too much in the weeds, especially for, um, there’s a basic, I guess, structure for a website and there’s a basic structure for the sales pages.
I think places you have to really pay attention to, like you said, the top fold, the above the fold, that part that people come to most often, right? So if you launch every quarter or you find you launch every six days, then there should, there should be something fresh up there. Like your lead Magna has to be updated.
Like, you know, whatever, whatever that messaging is that you need to put up there, um, to your point, we call it like the moment of highest tension.
Colie: Mm-hmm.
Christina: And those are the things that are happening in people’s life. Those are the things that people are watching. These are the, that changes. Netflix shows change.
Like those places where people have to identify themselves, those are the places you probably have to change the most desires are not gonna change. People wanting to get rich, people wanting to be loved people, those things are gonna, those are gonna stay the same forever. People not wanting to die alone.
People, those things are gonna stay pretty static, right. So, um, for me, like even when I write sales pages, like sometimes I’ll just have like a bunch of headlines just drop out of my head and I’m like, I’m gonna give you a Google Doc, but all these headlines and you should just change them up. And you have this ticker up here and I want you to know that is your goal.
Whatever you want to really plug, let’s keep that changed up there. Um, and then your podcast stuff, of course, right? Your content corner. I love a good simple one page website. I do. But there comes a time, especially like. You and me and everyone who’s making either long for content. I’m not an SEO person, but at least have a little content corner where you can throw like Instagram, YouTube, and Spotify are not the only people who should have your content.
Like why do they have you own your content? That’s your ip. You should put it on your website. I don’t care if you have a sales page and this is another landing page with all your stuff.
Colie: but wait, let’s, let’s talk about that,
Christina, because you know what cracks me up?
When I Google people and their website is not the first thing that pops up. Like if I was to Google you and your Instagram popped up first, we had a problem. Like that means that you don’t have enough stuff on your website to even rank for your name, like your company.
Like, are you kidding me? And so, I mean, that is something that we can tell all of our listeners right now, like, go Google yourself in an incognito window. Make sure that your website is what comes up for you first, not some podcast episode where you were a guest, not your Instagram account, not your YouTube account.
It should be your website, and if your website is not first, it’s probably an SEO issue, but in the bare minimum, that should give you the motive, the motivation to go make some changes on your website. It probably needs a little lovin. It’s probably missed you, I don’t know how long it’s been since you visited, but you should probably go and snuggle. Give it a little cuddle, give it a little update.
Christina: And snuggle it. Um, yeah, and I, I would just say that like things that, like moments moment of high attention places where people have to identify themselves, right? Because identities. Not that they, they don’t change so much, but what, what we may attach to that identity, right? So I know everybody’s an introvert.
Uh, everybody is making fun of the, that very organic beach hat coach look, that once was very in and now everyone is making fun of that. Um,
Colie: I have one of those photos. Drinking a, drinking a Mexican Coke on a beach girl. I got one. I mean, yeah, we’ve all got ’em.
Christina: So anyway, things like that, identifiers, we need to change a lot. The top of the fold um, you know, as you’re getting feedback and as you’re like, Ooh.
Right. And that’s why I like to, I, that’s kind of why I do my sales pages the way I do. I want you to be able to update it without me in these places. Like, I know these are the places we’re gonna have to update more often. Like, we’re gonna have to refresh these FAQs, right? And I don’t want no more than 10.
We don’t need 30 FAQs. Hit the ones that people really are really asking. You’re
Colie: I have nine, so I got your, I got your check
Christina: Yeah, I think more than 10 is just really intense. And then it becomes its own sales page, and you’re like, all right, just use the f FAQ as a sales page. Um, anything new that’s maybe you want that’s happened in your life, there’s some things about you.
So like if you’re, like, if you’re no longer calling yourself a copywriter, if you’re no longer calling yourself a creative director, like what are you identi? Like, what’s your. What’s your spiel? Now you may wanna update that so people are not coming to you for those things. Like, I find it so funny when people are like, why do people keep, you know, I’ve, I’ve pivoted, I’m like, well, what does your messaging say?
Oh no, it still says, okay, so what, what is, who’s fault is that? That’s not their fault. You told them that’s what you’re doing out here. What? You did a story once and a live once, telling everybody about your thing, and I don’t know about you, but my Instagram engagement is whack right now I just do Instagram cuz I love Instagram, but I’m not, I mean, it does help, but the, I don’t even know what’s going on with the algorithm right now.
Colie: But that is more, that is the reason that we should be focusing on our website because our website has nothing to do with Zuckerberg’s, um, algorithm.
So that is why you put all of your emphasis onto your website. But girl, okay, so I want to try to, cuz we’ve talked about a lot of things and I wanna really hone in on like our takeaways from messaging so that when we talk about these other things, we’re good.
So let’s say that I’m a brand new user cuz the, I mean these are like the people that usually are like, but I don’t know how to do this Colie. So let’s say that you’re a user. you’ve just created your products and your offers, you know, you know what your offer suite is. You’ve got an idea on your pricing cuz you and I could talk about that till the sun comes home, but that’s another episode.
So they’ve decided on some like introductory pricing, how is it that they should actually hone in on their messaging when they haven’t actually had that many clients yet? Like how do you get started in figuring out what you wanna say and who you wanna say it to when no one has paid you real American dollars yet?
Like how do we get started in getting some really juicy messaging that makes those people wanna work with you?
Christina: I would say the first place to start is don’t write in a vacuum. Like I said, 90% of copywriting is just restructuring words that have already been said. So I’ve, hopefully you’ve done some market research, you have some comparable, whether it’s people who are doing exactly what you’re doing and then figure it out what it is that you’re doing differently.
Um, and you may have to lean on your personality. Which brings me to my next point. Have someone hop on a zoom, like this situation, this is not Zoom, but you know what I mean. Um, and have them ask you those questions. Not prepared. I don’t wanna, you’re not gonna read it off a thing because I find what helps me write.
The most is asking people, why did you create this? Who is it for? What does it help them do? Oh my God, tell me more about that. And the more someone like asks you and they’re like, oh, okay. So they start a, and you start getting without really, at first, you’re gonna feel a little stilted, and then you feel your, you’ll feel yourself.
And this is how you know, either get so excited
about something, a point or so angry about something.
Usually it’s usually angry. I was pissed off because I bought all these things and usually for the most part, when you first start, I know for me, I became a copywriter who mostly worked with black, indigenous people of color, especially women owned brands, because I was tired of seeing large companies co-opt our cultures and our languages to sell stuff to us.
And then I go, look at your website and you sound like a robot, but I had a conversation with you and we were with Cackling and Kiki and Slanging and Spanglish and up, and I’m like, that’s the person I would buy from. Especially if you’re a lawyer or you do something, especially when you do things really boring.
And then I meet these people and they’re not boring. I’m like, that’s the person you work in. A
Colie: And you’re like, where’s that? Why did I not meet that person on your website? Because I will say, the one thing that I’ll say about my website is no one has ever in life told me that I am not what I seem on my website. Like I show up at photography client’s homes and they’re like, wow, you are just like you were on your website.
Yeah, I’m a loud black woman. I need to make sure that you know that’s who’s showing up in your house. Like when I tell you that I’m gonna jump in bed with you to take your pictures, I literally mean I’m gonna be standing over you. With your morning breath taking photos of you. Like, I want us to, like, you have to be able to know something about me so that when I hop in your bed and you still have your pajamas on and you are kissing your wife and hugging your children, and you’re like, okay, this is not so awkward because Colie has on pajamas too.
Like I try to do that. But the first step to getting people to know what to expect from you is what they find on your social media and on your website. So those things have to align. They have to meet the person that is gonna show up. Don’t sound like a robot on your website and show up as yourself in their house because that is, that is weird.
And I mean, I know not everybody does something as intimate as showing up to someone’s house with a camera, but like if I hired Christina to write copy with me, And she seemed really like quiet and Jamir. Well, I mean, let’s be real. I wouldn’t hire Christina if she seemed like that cuz y’all have seen my personality.
But if I did and then we hopped on our first like brand strategy messaging, customer research call, and she was like loud and nothing like I’d seen on her website, I might have a problem connecting with her when we’re actually doing the work that I’ve paid her for. So be yourself.
Christina: Basically be yourself and notice how you talk about things. Notice are you really like on, are you concise? Are you really to the point? Can you say a lot with a little bit of words that’s really helpful and copy, um, or are you not? Or do you, are you someone like me? I talk and aside, so I’m talking to you about something and then I have an aside.
Literally, I feel like you talk to me and you can see the parenthesis happening. That’s all over my copy. I’m talking one way and then all of a sudden I’m like, sidebar. And then that’s, I ha I want people to understand that Christina’s a little all over the place, but she’s, she’s rooting for me so hard, and I want people to know that on a website, like you’re worth, you are worth the money you’re gonna spend on me because I’m gonna, you’re gonna be.
And number one, you’re just gonna be so enthralled that you’re not writing this copy. You’re gonna be like, I’ll never do this again. But number two, you’ll feel really warm and happy. You don’t feel stupid about, and I want people to feel like, no, you’re ev. I think everyone who comes to me, maybe I’m just like low key.
It’s the mom and me that I’m like, they’re doing so good, baby. You’re doing so good. This is great. I love this. And so they’re feeling that vibe. And I want, that’s why copywriting. I know copywriting is very serious and it’s very black and white or it’s very neutral. No, my copy, I want colorful copy.
Everyone’s wearing these neutral colors. Everything looks like the New York Times or the New York magazine. I’m definitely Cosmo Magazine. I’m 36, I’m a 22 year old and a 36 year old body. Like I’m still trying to rock these fashions. I call people, bruh. I’m still like, I’m still, I want people to feel really excited about handing something over to me.
Um, and if personality is what you have to lean on, that’s what I did. I mean, it really, copywriters were introverted and wanted to stay in their copy cave. And then I came on the scene and I’ve got this big loud cackle and I like going live. And I’m like, I want
a really bright Barbie website. Oh yeah, I want a bright Barbie website and I want little cocktails everywhere.
And I want, like, I want it to feel like a good time. Like business can be fun. And this is the part where we can both like, collaborate and feel like geniuses and be like, yes. Ooh, how about that? Yeah. Like it could, it copy can be really this really fun, um, not so scary thing. Um, and so if you have to lean on your personality, if you have to talk it out, like I had, I had a long time ago, I used to do this thing where I just do copy talk and like, you’re really, I need you to just talk this out.
And I would l listen to people talking like that. You just wrote, you’re about page. I’m like, but what? I’m like, you just wrote it. I just heard it. You okay about page
Colie: I mean, but did you record it? That’s the real question.
Christina: Yes. You have to record it. I’m so sorry. Record it. Record it. Get Otter now. They talk to each other. You don’t even have to do anything back in the day.
You have to download the Zoom.
You have to record yourself, transcribe it, go back and read it, copy it.
If you see something, ooh, that would be a great headline. Ooh, that’s, that’s literally what I do. And then I take those pieces and boo boo boo. And yes, I bridge it together. I tell a story. I’m not just throwing a bunch of words together. So you wanna do that. You wanna talk it out. If you have no idea, I’m gonna market research anyway, so do it.
If you need to learn on your personality, please do, but you have to deliver. It can’t just be like, I’m fun, but I suck. Like, that’s not gonna work. Someone’s gonna figure it out. Um, and that was an imposter syndrome for me for a while. I was like, are people just hiring for my personality? I’m like, no, but they’re coming back and they’re paying me 10 high, four figures high.
Not once, not twice, not three times, not four times. So it can’t just be my personality, um, and transcribe and, and be willing to try like the co. That’s the best part about it, is that it is messaging. You can keep updating. It doesn’t need to last the stand of time, like, and it’s not going to,
Colie: Well, so before we transition into the next piece, I do think that that’s what’s worth highlighting is that done is better than perfect. And the thing is, your copy should not be static. And so the quicker you get it up, the faster you can get feedback on that copy and then you can start to tweak it.
Because I think a lot of us, I mean, let’s be honest, all of us entrepreneurs are scared to put something out there before we think that it’s like it’s got a gold seal of approval. And the problem with doing that is guys, As Christina said, you need to check your buttons. You need to make sure that the website that you put out works like that aside.
But the moment that you put your photos on there, you put the copy on there, you make it live, you are gonna start to get feedback either from people actually telling you what parts they liked and didn’t like, or the fact that you’re not getting any traffic at all. And then you’ve got an s e o problem, not a tr, not a copy problem.
That’s that’s a problem for a different day. But you have to put it out there. You have to make it live because you can’t start to tweak and improve it until you actually put it out into the world. So before we move on to the next section, Christina, I do wanna say we started this conversation. Kind of talking about D I Y on the sly, and while you and I both know the value of hiring professionals to do almost everything in your business that you can, I do see the value in a lot of things of doing a little bit of DIY first.
Like if you can’t afford to get a full copywriter or a website or systems, but you still have to put in the work, what is it that they should do first? Because I know we’ve talked about the call and guys, the call is gold. If you have not asked your business bestie to get on a zoom with you and just ask you questions about your service so that you can tell them all the things that Christina has already offered, you should do this next week.
By next week, you should be talking to one of your business besties or your partner, your spouse, any of those, but make sure you record it because you are bound to say at least one really, really awesome thing that you can post on social media, put on a headline as your website, like all that good jazz.
So in addition to the call, is there anything else that you would recommend that people do in the DIY stage before they’re ready to hire a professional?
Christina: Read it. Read the copy, read it out loud. And if you find yourself going, what the, am I saying? Excuse my language, what am I saying? Or what am I trying to say? Right. If you’re confused or you stop, that means someone else is gonna stop. I’m like, what? What am I trying to say? Something that really helps we every, as much as I love personality and as much as I love tangents and like really storytelling, I.
On top of that, every word has to be doing its job. Think about that. You’re paying each word a thousand dollars,
Colie: Woo. That’s,
Christina: right? And you’re like, Ugh.
Lemme tell you, you’re not, you’re not doing, you’re not holding up, you’re not doing any lift right now. After each headline, maybe after each sentence is a little bit much, but now you’re getting the hang of it.
Ask yourself, I called it the unimpressed auntie. So what? There’s a drunk auntie with her martini in her hand, and you’re telling her this thing, or she’s reading this thing in each line. She’s like, so what? So what? Why? Why would I, why do I care? Right? And when I say that, um, you may have to go four or five times, you may have to ask yourself, so what, four or five times?
Cuz we’re a little too abstract. We’re a little too close to it. And we’re gonna say things that nobody gives a f about, right? So you can like, so I can have freedom. What is freedom really look and taste like to this person. Does Frida mean? I don’t know, scratching their butt on the couch watching Netflix.
Or even more watching Joe binging all of Joe with no kids, with no spouse, with a tub of ice cream. I don’t care. Right? So what, um, and usually what, what we really mean when we say so what is so that I can do what? So that I can be what? So that I can
have What what do I get? And then, um, yeah, the, so what test is really helpful?
Reading it out loud to make sure you’re not a, you’re making sense and that like certain things you can leave out or what can we make a little bit more concise or to the point or more powerful and where can we, as much as possible, um, I don’t wanna say, I wanna say detail with a grain of salt, cuz sometimes we can get too detailed and we lose people.
But we do want to make it a little bit more, instead of saying, like I said, freedom. What does that, what does it really look like to them? Right. And as you see people or you move in circles, maybe you’re in a Facebook group, maybe you’re in a thing, like, pay attention to the people you’re in. If you’re in these circles now, pay attention to what they really want, what they’re really asking.
Um, because nine outta 10 times those desires and those wants can be transferred Here, it’s just bridging your, how your product is gonna get them there,
Colie: So we’ve talked about diy, and you and I both know that the return on investment that you get from actually hiring a professional is like sky high. So how do people know that they are ready to invest in copywriting services from a professional, like you’ve got this brand new business, you’ve done your diy, now you think you’re ready for the next stage.
But how do you know?
Christina: I think everyone can benefit from having it from the start. However, I know it’s not a price point, it also depends on the price point. I think the first thing you really need to know is if you can articulate, cuz I can’t articulate your offer for you if you can’t articulate your offer, and there’s a lot of people who make a lot of money and still can’t articulate their offer on paper.
They can do it really well. Um, or maybe they’re magnetism or they’re really good. Like I said, salespeople,
Colie: Mm-hmm.
Christina: you’re really good salespeople, but marketing and sales are two different things, right? When you’re selling someone, you already have the person in front of you. Your market is there, they’re sitting right there.
When you’re marketing our market to, I have to find in a stack of people who, who are the one or two, three people who are gonna come to them be sold to, right? So I, I’m trying to find that market. So I think anyone can benefit it from it. I think where you can maybe think about it is how soon do you need it?
Colie: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Is there a launch? Is this like a big launch where you can’t really trust yourself? And that’s okay to admit that. Trust yourself to write a lot of assets. What assets in a launch or that you maybe you love writing email. Okay, for now then don’t give it to it. Email. What is the stuff that like you find yourself procrastinating on, you’re hemming and hawing on.
You’re like, uh, this makes me wanna throw off. I don’t wanna write it, or I don’t wanna send it, or I don’t wanna do anything with it. Um, another thing, and I think we don’t think of a lot, copywriters are really down to whether or not they have it on their page or not. Let me tell you something.
Copywriting. Yeah, there’s seasons and flows and sometimes you’re making a lot of money. Sometimes they’re not. If you said, Hey, I wrote some stuff, I just would really love for this to be critiqued.
And like some copy edits, some suggestions. How much would that cost me? They’ll tell you they could do that in a day and it might be a thousand bucks, maybe less 500 bucks.
But it’s not a service they offer because it’s not lucrative. And it would take away from marketing and it would take away from actually doing other copy projects, but they’d be down to do it. As long as you say I’d pay for it. It’s not a pick your brain session.
Colie: But I do know, yes, but I do know a lot of copywriters that actually have that as a service on their website. I know one in particular that calls it a glow up. Like she will review your website and give you like full copy. Um, critique, uh, suggestions on like one page and like, you know, make suggestions on the website as a whole.
I mean, I think that’s fantastic for someone who feels like they had a good sense of their messaging and they did it, but they just want like, again, a gold seal of approval from a professional copywriter. I do think that’s a fantastic option, I think, and I mean, hey, maybe this is an FAQ that you should address, Christina.
I think that when it comes to paying like high dollar for high ticket, a lot of us feel like, okay, again, I don’t have a lot of customers, I haven’t had a lot of clients. I can’t really articulate well enough my offer to where I don’t think I’m gonna pay this copywriter and I’m not gonna need to modify everything in three months, you know, when I get a better handle on my offer or my services or whatever it is.
So I do think that’s a real fear. I think that people fear. Hiring a professional when you’re not quite sure that you figured it all out, like your business, your offer, all that kind of stuff for yourself. But like, starting with like this baby, like, can you just look at what I’ve done and, and give me some critique?
And then I do, I do know, I know from experience that if you did that, when you are ready for a light full fledged copy, you’re more likely to go back to the person that you trusted the first time, as long as they didn’t, you know, fuck it up or whatever. Um, I do think that you’re more likely to go back to that person because you have a relationship.
They, you know, you hired them before and it did make improvements on your website and now you’re, you know, you’re more confident. That’s it. Christina, I do feel like a lot of people are not confident enough in their offer to spend the big money because they’re afraid of the things that will change rather quickly early in their business.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And I think this will speak more to the, our last thing. Do you have the systems in place? Like if this copy goes live, do you have the systems in place to fulfill like Yes. It’s nice to have great copy that converts. Okay. But now, right, because you may not have, I have a client I just work with.
She’s like, Christina, I don’t have this. I’ve just, I’ve kind of done this on the fly, but I don’t have this offer nailed down. It’s actually a testimony on my Instagram. She’s like, I literally gave Christina nothing, but we’ve worked a few times. I know what it’s like to work with her. She does a lot of her co, it’s it’s parts of product she already has into an offer that I have worked with each of that product suite that I knew exactly what the offer.
I was like, I girl, we got this. We gonna create this offer right now on this call. We’re gonna nail it down. We’re gonna make it make sense and we’re gonna sell it. And then you can sell from the, you can sell from a Google doc. That’s what I was gonna say. You can sell from your Google Doc, you can make a website and I do it all the time.
I have done multiple five figure K launches for other people with just a Google doc. It’s possible. That’s all a website is really, right? It’s like an H T M L document that has little images and buttons and it’s great. It’s just a big document that’s pretty, um, it’s, it’s a brochure. So yeah, to that point you can, there’s best all these ways to do it.
Um, but another way to know is can you, can you deal what’s gonna happen when these people come through? Cuz I’m happy, I’m happy to make your offer sing. And if I really trust and you have proof, right? Because I’m gonna ask for some proof. I don’t just write copy. Like I need to be able to experience your product somehow.
Um, so I would say that like, don’t be too hung up and I haven’t had clients. Most copywriters will go, I’d say, you know what, then this may not be a weekender, right? I do mine in a weekender. This may not be a weekend, this may actually be a week. That’s cuz I need to experience the product a little bit more in order to write about it cuz you don’t have enough social proof for me to just trust that this is a good product. Um, and then what’s gonna happen that I always ask that. So what happens after I buy the thing?
Colie: Yeah. All right guys, so Christina has led us into the perfect place. We are going to end part one here. If you would like to join us for part two, please pop over to Best Regards, Christina Torres podcast where you will listen to part two. That’s it for this episode. See you next time.
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