Being a business owner comes with a lot of responsibilities and strategy for success—one thing we often overlook is finding a balance of creativity. In today’s episode, Tenley Clark joins us to share why it’s important to nurture your creativity and find the time to keep creating for yourself!
The Business-First Creatives Podcast is brought to you by CRM and Dubsado expert Colie James. Join Colie each week as she discusses how to build a business that brings you joy and a paycheck! From business advice with fellow entrepreneurs to sharing automation tips and tricks, Colie and her guests are sharing industry trends and resources, along with a little bit of sarcasm.
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Guest Bio:
Tenley Clark is the queen of creativity + color. She claims the titles Picture Taker + Magic Maker and is a Sony Alpha Female. When she is not creating amazing art, inspired by all things vintage, she’s likely visiting Disneyland.
Today’s episode is brought to you by my DIY Dubsado Template Shop! In this shop, you can purchase the email, form, and workflow templates that I include in the CRM Blueprint course. You can steal my templates to eliminate setup stress while also customizing them to match your brand! Use the code PODCAST for 10% off.
Here are the highlights…
[1:19] Get to Know Tenley
[5:31] Creative & Enjoyable Photography
[9:32] Deciding to Go Back to Creativity
[14:07] Finding Her Own Creativity
[15:38] The Sony Alpha Female Grant + Applying
[21:35] Creating for Herself
[23:11] Letting Go & Accepting Rejection
[25:09] Boss Energy at Disney
[25:42] Big Creative Projects
Connect with Tenley
instagram.com/tenleyclarkcreative
Today’s episode is brought to you by my DIY Dubsado Template Shop! In this shop, you can purchase the email, form, and workflow templates that I include in the CRM Blueprint course. You can steal my templates to eliminate setup stress while also customizing them to match your brand! Use the code PODCAST for 10% off.
Review the Transcript:
Colie: Hello, hello and welcome back to the Business First Creatives podcast. Today is a first y’all. I am going to interview my good friend, Tenley Clark, and we are not really gonna talk about business. She is my first guest that I just want to talk about her creativity because it is out of this world. Tenley, welcome to my podcast.
How are you today?
Tenley: Thank you for having me. I’m great. I’m fantastic cause I’m with you
Colie: Mm-hmm.
Tenley: bring this positivity always and we love it.
Colie: If you’re not looking at the video on YouTube, y’all, she has on a pink hat and a pink t-shirt. It is amazing. She is definitely one of my most colorful guests on the podcast. But pretend, Lee, tell me a little bit about you and what your background is and how you got into photography.
Tenley: So I accidentally kind of got into photography. I started taking pictures to Photoshop for fun. I was like really into Photoshop my freshman year in high school. And so, uh, like I, I took, I literally started on Photoshop one. Photoshop one and making collages and silly things like that because that’s what she did back then.
There wasn’t a lot, it wasn’t as robust of a software as its now, and so then in college I thought I would be a psych major. I walked in, they were like, it’s a lot of science, and like, where do I change my major? Uh, after that they, I took a photo class for like an elective for fun. I thought it’d be like, oh, that’s an easy elective, right?
I did pictures for like our yearbook back in high school, and then they said like, oh, this is your Beck’s picture, and it was like this blurry out of focus, like garbage photo. And I was like, I don’t understand this. This is clearly not for me. And then I left college for a year to come home because I was gonna be Tinkerbell at Disneyland.
That was like my dream. Or like Alice, like one of the short characters, you know, like, cuz I, I’m only five two, I can’t be a princess unfortunately. Um, and so, but while I was here, I just started taking classes at the junior college for photography for fun. And while I was there, they like had digital, they’re more.
Got into it more and more, just had so much fun creating what was in my head, just like random fairytale scenes or something else. And it was like, really healing at a time where I was going through a lot of dark trauma. And so that was like artist therapy to me for all. Were all creative beings and so for me it was like a huge thing and I ended up going back and getting my degree in it.
Colie: I mean, and it’s a really rare person in the world of photography that actually has a photography degree. And I mean, Tenley, you are back in grad school now, getting an mfa. I mean, so it wasn’t enough punishment for you to get the first degree in photography.
You decided that you wanted another one, which makes you a rare, rare, rare bird in the world of photography. So why did you decide to go back to grad school to get an mfa?
Tenley: Well, as you know, running your own business, when you’re doing your passion and your like art as your work, it can be really tricky. And so I always tell people it’s like it’s good to pick a focus. Like do you wanna make money or do you wanna be an artist? And then you could separate those two cause it’s very hard.
When people are buying your product, you have to be really cohesive. They need to know what they’re getting. If you’re gonna charge ’em. It’s gotta, like, I wanna know if I go to an artist site, like what am I gonna get if I pay you this much money? It’s a big leap of faith, right? And so for me, I get really bored really easily.
And so it’s really hard. I’m like, I started as a wedding photographer, I’ve done everything. I’m just like, okay, next. Okay, next. Like, okay, I did families, okay, now I’m gonna go do this. And so, for me, I was starting to feel really burnt out. Like, okay, well I’ve done. Everything here that there is to do. And I missed having that outlet of like that artist therapy for me.
And I really wanted to teach it and give that gift to other people at a time who, when they might really need it. And my teaching credential would’ve taken me, I thought longer to get which, because you have to like after seven years your GE stuff like lapses. So I would have to retake everything. And so I decided, okay, well I’ll teach collegiate level.
That’s where I needed it. And that’s why I went back was ultimately just cause I wanted to teach and get back to creating for myself.
Colie: I mean, we talked about this before I hit record, but for the listening audience, it doesn’t know. Uh, Colie James is a PhD dropout, and I was giving all of the kudos to Tenley because I cannot, guys cannot imagine going back and finishing my PhD at this point. That would literally be my worst nightmare.
But Tenley, I do think that your artistry and your creativity are something that anyone in college should get a piece of. And so, I mean, it is great that you’ve gone back, but you’ve said that you’ve shot almost everything. So what was your favorite genre to shoot? And does it matter if you were making money at it or not?
So I guess what I’m asking is what’s your favorite genre of photography? And have you actually charged people for those kinds of photographs?
Tenley: What a great question. I know that’s so hard because I do, I love photographing kids, so I’m really passionate about that. So I think that for money making, that was like the more, better route for me and I definitely loved that side of it. And so kids fashion editorials though, were my favorite favorite cuz you could be really creative in that.
But it makes, it does not pay. So, while doing the others type, like commercial kids work that pays kids fashion, editorial does not. And so I would say between that and then just doing self portraits for fun, cause I can fully. I’m like a lone wolf when I work in that way. I really like to have control over everything and then not feel like if this doesn’t turn out, they’re gonna think, oh, it’s a weird idea.
What if it doesn’t turn out? Things like that. So I like to like create in my own space, just in this weird, like, okay, I’m gonna make this weird world. So I think those are my favorite and neither of them really pay. So,
Colie: Okay, so I mean, you chose, you chose to be an artist over to get paid for it because I mean, I applaud you. I applaud you because for a lot of us, when we get to that point to where we are so overwhelmed and burnt out by the creative, I don’t think any of us really take the time to be like, okay, but what if I just did something else to make money and I went back to doing what I loved about photography in the first place.
I do think that, you know, that’s something that maybe more of us need to consider is that. You know, it is a business, and that is why I created this podcast because I feel like too many people focus on becoming a better artist instead of becoming a better business owner. But I’m mostly talking to the people who want it to be a business.
And so if you stop wanting it to be a business, I mean, that’s great. Go, go work on your artistry, you know, get bigger and better at all the things that you do. But if you truly do want it to be sustainable and profitable, I do think that you have to put in the work in terms of learning how to run a business, because many of us do not come out of college with those skills like you have a bachelor’s degree in photography.
Did you take any business courses as an undergrad?
Tenley: They don’t even offer them. And in fact, somebody came in, we had a guest speaker one time to talk about like we would have guest speakers who would talk about. Doing it as a business. And one guy came in and said literally, the only way to make money at this is to do weddings. Like that was his advice.
And so I was like, I guess I have to do weddings. That’s literally why I started as a wedding photographer. There’s no money in fashion editorial, which was my original plan, and so, Yeah, bad business advice. They don’t make you take any business courses. So you really are just figuring that whole side out for yourself and it really is the most important side.
When people say like, oh, I went and got my degree in business. I’m like, you’re so smart. That is, the people who are good at business end up being the most successful. It’s just true. Talent can only go so far when you are running it as a business. So it’s like important to embrace your entrepreneurial spirit, learn that side deep dive, listen to podcasts, and um, get all the knowledge you can in.
Colie: Yeah, so my undergrad is actually in mathematics with focus in statistics and mathematics education, but then my minor was business administration. I had absolutely no interest in like running a business when I was an undergrad. I just took the business courses because I thought they were easy. I’ve also, I’ve always been super fascinated by marketing.
Like, I don’t think that I ever would’ve chosen a career. I mean, besides owning my own business guys, marketing is a very important part of owning your own business. But I think other than that, I would’ve never chosen. Like a career that was related to marketing. But I always really loved being in those business classes because, I mean, I found them fascinating and they were also easy.
I mean, accounting, hello, all of those numbers. I have way more accounting classes than anyone who doesn’t do accounting or bookkeeping for a living should. I mean, I have a lot of, a lot of hours in accounting guys. But So you didn’t get any of that kind of business advice? When you were an undergrad, and then how long were you in business before you took this break to go back to your creativity?
Tenley: Oh, over a decade. So just really pushing and grinding. It’s so, it is really hard being an entrepreneur. I do feel like there is a certain, personality or spirit that you need to have to excel in that side of the thing, the world. And it just wasn’t for me. And it felt like I was constantly trying to push something that didn’t feel authentic to me and that I didn’t wanna do.
I don’t wanna hunt people down for money. I don’t, I didn’t wanna charge. It was so hard for me and I could get there. And I got there and it was fine and I was running a successful business. But I think. I feel like I manifested the job I have now. I just was like, I am so tired. I just wanna work for one company where I could focus on the marketing and along with the photos and the branding, and do graphic design.
And then lo and behold, one of my commercial clients literally calls me up and, and they’re like, Hey, we have this marketing director position. And I was like, well, my degree’s in photography. So why are you calling me? Because, you know, I’d worked with them freelance as a photographer, but when we went over what the job would entail and everything, I was like, actually this would be quite amazing.
And it has been and I really love it. Cause I still get to do photography as my job, but for one client. And along with that I get to like really deep dive, like you’re saying into the marketing stuff, which is really fun. But it really took me a long time to get to that like, But I was burn out every year.
I don’t know if you guys, how many people out there feel that, but it’s like every fall at the end of it, you hit December and you’re like never again.
Colie: You’re
Tenley: you get to January, you get In January, you make your vision boards, you’re like, I got this. But um,
Colie: So you only allow yourself one month. One month to wallow and you’re, oh my God, I’m never doing this again. And then by January, I mean, and it’s funny because, you know, I’m taking less photography clients now, but when people would ask me about my busiest month, I would always be like, oh, December’s really busy for me.
And they were like, what? I was like, I don’t know. Between babies. And people wanting the kind of holiday sessions that I offered, which is, let me come into your house. Let’s trim your tree. Let’s wrap presents. I mean, it’s not, Ooh, let’s go take portraits outside. It’s definitely not what I do. But I mean, if I looked at the number of clients that I booked every month, I mean December was always really high, but then in January it didn’t typically let up because I was still doing in-home newborns.
And so honestly, like the slowest part of my business was often the beginning of fall, which is of course the opposite of like every other family photographer. I know I feel weird even saying that out loud, but also I have been really good in all of the almost 11 years that I’ve been in business. I take off the second half of July.
Almost the entire month of August. So it’s like almost six weeks total. And the only people that I’ve ever let sneak in are my returning clients that have babies. So like. One year I had a returning client whose their, their kid’s first birthday was on my husband’s birthday. That’s when the party was. And I was like, okay, James, listen, I love you, but I’m gonna sneak off for like two hours and just run and photograph this and I’ll be right back.
But I do 100% never work on my birthday. That is just a line that I will not cross. I will never work on Chloe’s birthday, James’ birthday. You know, clearly, as you can see, that was negotiable, but. I mean, I always take that off. So that might also be why I’ve never really felt burnt out by fall, because I would just be off of like a good solid three to six week break.
Where, I mean, cuz you know, I always wanted to be there for when Chloe started her first day of school and like all of our birthdays, cuz all of our birthdays are within two weeks. And so we usually, like we take a vacation or like this year we’re going, we’re all going to Disneyland tenley for an entire week.
So, I mean, we just, we get to do things like that because all of our birthdays are together. But you know, that aside, so I feel like we’ve been talking a lot about business, even though I promised people we weren’t gonna talk about business. Tenley, let’s talk about these awesome self-portraits that you make.
I mean, I’m scrolling on my Instagram feed, and even if I didn’t recognize your beautiful face and your super bright blonde hair, like I would know that it was a photo by you because you have a certain creative technique that I am just in awe of. Like the colors are just amazing. So how is it that you get.
Like when you’re planning, well, first of all, do you plan yourself portraits? Like what gives you the creative spark to be like, oh, I’m totally gonna photograph this as a self-portrait.
Tenley: I have, like, I’ve always had a really weird brain. I think maybe you dealt with this too, but growing up really good at math and really good student straight A’s. I was always put in the bucket of not being non-creative and told I that wasn’t my strength. It’s like you’re an athlete and you’re really smart and in math.
And so they put me like in math and science accelerators and things. And so, but the second I opened those doors to say like, I am creative, and somebody said that back to me. That’s like really all it took is somebody believing in me. And then after that it’s like my brain’s just really weird. Like I dream ideas, they just come to me.
And so, uh, I think inspiration has never been something I’ve struggled with as much as the time to create all the ideas that I have. So. I’m just like a note. I’m a list maker. I love it. So I keep lists and lists and lists. So I have a notebooks filled with ideas and sometimes they take me years to make.
I just made a cinemagraph that I had had this weird TV in my house that I painted pink for two years and oh, and a salon chair outside. Outside in my cardboard. So I, it’s just, ideas are really easy for me. It’s just, getting the time to implement them. I always feel bad saying that, but I, I feel inspired by everything.
But I do think if it’s, it’s like a muscle you work where it’s like, if you’re constantly looking for it and open for inspiration, it will find you. So I just kind of, no, I wanna make this.
Colie: And I know that I’m gonna butcher this, so I apologize. You got a Sony grant? Tell me the name so that I don’t say it wrong.
Tenley: Sony Alpha Female Grant. Yes.
Colie: Okay. So tell me about your process of applying for that. I mean, were you scared shitless? Because I would be, I, I don’t know that I would actually have, like, I don’t know that I would be able to fill it out and actually hit sentence. So tell me about applying for that grant. How did you find it? How did you decide what images you were going to submit?
Like I’m thinking, I mean, my heart is racing really fast right now, thinking about submitting for something like that. But you did it and you got it because you are amazing. But tell me about it.
Tenley: Honestly, I had been ha letting fear hold me back for so long, and I remember being at a photo native and the closing talk was by Sam Kelly, and she gets this most beautiful speech about fear and not letting it hold you back and. I was like, I remember sitting there and then we went to see Greatest Showman, which is my new favorite movie.
And I was with Miriam Solai from Hi and Hello and, uh, my friend Kim. And we were, I just was like, I’m done. I don’t wanna like, let fear hold me back anymore, so I’m just gonna hit Sumit even when it’s hard. And after that, like I submitted for conferences and I never thought I’d ever be chosen to speak.
And I think, and then somehow I was so, I. Think like it’s just really hard to hit submit, but what is the worst thing that can happen? Just reminding yourself, it’s like, so they don’t pick you like you’re in the same spot as when you started and who cares? It’s like you. I don’t even tell people half the time when I submit to things because I get so anxious.
That makes me more nervous that I’d have to say like, I failed at this. But it’s not a failure. It’s really not. Failure is like a part of the process of growing and being able to see succeed. You can’t succeed if you don’t try. If you don’t buy the lotto ticket, you can’t win. So I think that’s always been in the my head, it’s like, this is my lotto ticket.
I have a one in a million chance, but I’m gonna do it just because, you know, it’s good to go through the process of grant application. It’s a pretty thorough process, and then months went by and I didn’t hear anything and I was like, okay, well, oh, well, you know, and you could resubmit every month. But I was like, that was hard That the first time and then I the call.
Colie: That’s awesome. I mean, I take a really bad attitude. I, I shouldn’t say that. But when I apply to speak somewhere and they come back and they tell me no, I’m just like, well, fuck you. I’ll find somewhere else to do it or I’m gonna create my own workshop slash online conference so that I can give it, because the topic is so great. But. I mean, it is a lot of fear when it comes to applying to someone else because even if you’re not. Even if you don’t value specifically that validation from them, like that is what you’re seeking by submitting to speak at someone else’s conference, you know, get a grant from someone else.
And it’s really hard because if you get a no, which let’s be honest, they only have a few slots for whatever it is that you’re applying for. So even if you’re not the person who got the no, like someone else got the no. And so we all have to have, I agree with you, like a better attitude of when they tell us no.
We have to dig deep inside of us and be like, yes, but we didn’t let fear overcome us. We hit submit, and that in itself is worth celebrating.
Tenley: Absolutely. And can we all just have your attitude about everything that I want, that boss energy where I’m like, it’s amazing. I’m still gonna do it. Screw you, you’re missing out.
Colie: Well, you literally know this. I mean, way back in the day, that’s how I created my first online course. I asked to teach it somewhere and they said no, and I was like, well, fuck it, I’ll just teach it on my own then. And then for four years, I taught a very successful online course, which sold out like every time.
And then I stopped selling it only because at that point, documentary family photography was so new that there just weren’t that many people teaching it. And then when everyone started teaching it, I was like, okay, well you know what? I’m done with this. Let me find the next thing that you know I can do.
And it’s funny, I had my business coach Jordan Gill on the podcast a few months ago, and one of the things that she said was, and it’s a quote, I put it on Instagram, well, I’m just gonna make my own table until you give me a seat at one. And I have pretty much always taken that attitude like, that’s fine, you don’t wanna gimme a seat, I’ll make my own table. It’s fine. It’s fine.
Tenley: Thank you for reminding me about that quote. I’m gonna print it out and put it on my computer every day of grad school.
Colie: I mean, you know, I think we all need like a strong hug every once in a while to tell you that you are worthy and that you can do anything that you need. But you will never get a yes if you don’t hit submit. So if 10 Lee has taught us anything, it is, you know, and have, have high goals like, I know it’s hard.
I’m, I mean, I don’t know how many people applied to be an alpha female for Sony, but I’m sure it’s like hundreds if not thousands, and our girl Tenley here. Got it. Right. And so, I mean, you know, Good things come to those that say yes. If you don’t say yes, if you don’t submit it, you will never get that. Yes.
And then you will always wonder what could have been, I mean, going back to business like this is applicable for anybody. If you wanna launch an offer, if you wanna try something out, and we’re always worried about like the feedback that we’ll get, okay, well no, just fuck it. Just put it out there. Someone is bound to say yes.
Guys, that is usually the golden rule.
Tenley: That’s how you get your ideal client is like saying no, and once you start saying it, it feels so good and you’re like, why did I wait so long?
Colie: I mean, I can’t. Yes, and I can’t remember. Isn’t there someone that says they walked around collecting nose? Okay, now I feel bad cuz I can’t remember what it is. But someone just repeatedly put offers out, repeatedly applied for something. Basically collecting your nose because after you collect a certain number of nos, you know you will get a yes.
But if you never put yourself out there, if you never collect those nos, you’re not giving, you’re the opportunity for someone to actually say yes to you, which, Would, you know, be a tragedy because I love working at looking at your work, and I know that like a lot of those self portraits, you had the time and space to create because you got the grant from Sony.
Tenley: Yeah, it was such a gift and I never thought a million years that I would ever get picked. So it wasn’t like I was like, oh, this is amazing. They’re totally gonna pick. I don’t have that kind of energy. Confidence is the number one thing I struggle with. And it’s, yeah, so it wasn’t like I was feeling really good and feeling myself.
I just thought, you know, well, let’s take a shot in the dark. Why not? And I think Elizabeth Gilbert is the one who I know for sure she has talked about that. I’m like all the rejection letters that she got and just being like, yay. Closer to
Colie: Another one, I mean, what would it look like if we all hung rejection letters on our fridge instead of the acceptance? How motivate, I mean, no, granted, there are some people that would not find that motivating, but I think, I mean I’ve never done it, but now that we’ve said it out loud, I think I would actually find that motivating.
Like, oh, you said no. Okay. Fuck you. Okay, no, you said no. Okay. Fuck you just keep on going until you know I improved it and it got better and I finally got that one that said yes. I mean, I often tell people, cuz you know me, Tenley, I tell people to raise their prices all the time. But I warn people, when you raise your prices, you will get nos.
Like lots of people are gonna tell you nos, but the first time that you get that, yes, you are like, oh my God, there are people that exist that will pay me these prices. And then you don’t have as much self-doubt going forward. You have way more confidence to put that offer out there because you’re like, okay, no, someone said yes.
So now there have to be more people that will continue to say, me, yes, as I go in this endeavor.
Tenley: 100%. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. And it’s like hard because people get attached to their claims, but it’s also a business. So it’s like you have to say, okay, well many sessions can still exist for that to serve that clientele. I don’t wanna let go of it, but. Yeah, for your full sessions up that price, because guess what that all you need is that one.
Yes. And then that one yes. Tells their friend and that friend has the same income level and appreciation for what you do and all that stuff. And then you have an evangelist and that person will bring more people who will pay that amount. Just, yeah, that initial yes, into charging what you’re worth is huge and so important, but it’s hard.
And just remembering like. Every single successful person was told? No. This is something big we teach of at our, like the sports camp I work at. And also just in general, I’ve always studied successful people because I don’t have confidence. And, how many of them heard like massive nos? Like Michael Jordan, you know, didn’t make his high school basketball team?
You know, I don’t wanna give the JK Rowling one because she’s canceled, but.
Colie: I mean, but, and there’s, there’s a set of memes. I can’t remember where I’ve seen that, but if I find it on Instagram, I will link it in the show notes. But there’s like that set of op, Oprah got told no until she was like 28. I mean, it was like, I think it was also like, you know, not just about getting the nos for the one that I’m thinking of, but it was also about all these people doing things late in life.
Like, you know, they, they didn’t really discover like their inner power until they were in their late thirties, early forties, and hey, I’m about to be 44. I am here for it.
Tenley: Yes. I got my 38th birthday coming up in a couple weeks, so I, yeah, it’s, yeah, Walt Disney was a big one with Disneyland, right? He, you know, we go to Disneyland, we keep them in business. You and I,
Colie: I do, I think I solely keep them in business.
Tenley: and
Colie: oh my gosh, Tenley, we’ve never gone together like that. Should now be on our bucket list. In the next year. We should go to Disneyland together. Yes.
Tenley: I would love that. I love going with other people who are Boss Energy at Disneyland too, cuz like we know how to get it done and we are like the most, I I’m like, it’s gonna be a 30,000 step minimum day. We are going to hit this, this. And I’m like so good at it now cuz we go so often. Like my best friend Kristen Moore, she, we met on her podcast and same thing.
We planned our trip to Disneyland and that’s how we became friends. So I’m just saying we need to go do this Disneyland trip.
Colie: Okay. So, hey, Tenley, in the next few years, other than finishing your mfa, do you have any big creative projects on the horizon?
Tenley: I mean, that’s a really big one. I think for that because there are so many creative projects you have to do to hit your markers in grad school. So next year my, it’s a three year program and in my second year we have to do something called atc, which is Advancement to Candidacy. And you have to do a huge show.
It’s like a big deal. And so not only are you doing your assignments and your. Small series for, work, but you have to do this massive show and then defend it in front of a whole like panel of people. And then after that you do your thesis show, which is another massive show to obviously graduate.
And so that’s a lot of creative endeavors right there for me to handle. So I think for me right now though, I really just wanna get back to play. I think play is undervalued as adults. And we talk about, like with kids now, we ha see this like play-based learning and how effective it is for children and yet adults don’t do it.
And so, For me, I wanna get this summer, like to take it, off of grad school and just focus on playing and like, being like, okay, I’m gonna add embroidery to this and I’m gonna throw some paint on this one and I might run this one over with my car. I like, you know, just having fun with art and like getting back to a place where it’s like not for other people.
Cuz that’s the, I think it’s important even for anyone in business, no matter where you are, to create for yourself and just create for fun. Not create for Instagram, not create for anything else to. Otherwise you will get burned out. You have to remind yourself, I love this. I chose this.
Colie: Mm-hmm.
Tenley: Let’s keep loving it.
Colie: Create for yourself. That’s gonna be the name of this podcast. All right, Tenley. If people wanna find out more about you and follow all of your creative endeavors, where can they find you on the internet?
Tenley: Well, tenley clark com and at Tenley Clark, on Instagram and everywhere else basically.
Colie: Okay, Tenley, thank you so much for coming on my podcast guys. That’s the end of this cuz I’m about to plan a trip to Disneyland with Tenley. Thanks for tuning in. See you next time.
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