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CRM Guru, Family Filmmaker, and Host of the Business-First Creatives podcast. I help creative service providers grow and streamline their businesses using Dubsado.
As much time and energy as you’re pouring into your marketing efforts, are you considering the rule of 7? While the rule of 7 may be slightly outdated, the idea that an audience needs to see messaging many times before making a decision still rings true. In today’s episode, Dayna Schaaf joins us to discuss the differences between advertising, marketing, and selling, plus how you can apply the rule of 7 to your business and marketing efforts.
The Business-First Creatives Podcast is brought to you by CRM and Dubsado expert Colie James. Join Colie each week as she discusses how to build a business that brings you joy and a paycheck! From business advice with fellow entrepreneurs to sharing automation tips and tricks, Colie and her guests are sharing industry trends and resources, along with a little bit of sarcasm.
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Dayna helps creative small business owners master digital marketing so they can turn followers into clients.
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Here are the highlights…
[1:09] Meet Dayna
[4:41] Marketing vs. Advertising vs. Sales
[10:32] The Rule of Seven
[19:19] The Cadence of Asking for the Sale
[40:22] Using AI in Business
Mentioned in this Episode:
Connect with Dayna
Review the Transcript:
Colie: Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Business First Creatives podcast. Today is a treat. I am here with digital marketing genius, Dayna. Now I’m gonna tell you, I’ve decided I should start telling you guys who is actually like in my phone, who has my personal cell phone number, and that will give you an idea of who is like super, super special that comes on my podcast.
Good morning, Dayna. How are you today?
Dayna: Good morning. I’m so good and dressed all in my rainbow colors. Just for you.
Colie: Ugh, so fabulous guys. She texted me yesterday, was that yesterday? She texted me and she’s like, okay. I wrote up all our notes for our podcast interview, and of course I crack up laughing and she’s like, Colie, I’m an a plus student. So guys, today is gonna be like a masterclass in marketing and sales, so it’s gonna be a real treat.
Dayna, why don’t you tell everyone how we know each other? And then how you started doing digital marketing for solopreneurs.
Dayna: So, Colie and I met, I guess officially at TFN, right? The family narrative,
Colie: Like in person, gave each other
But I feel like I’ve been a huge Colie fan on, I Instagram stalked you for probably two years now after working. So I work with Anami at this. Can’t be that hard. And I do marketing for her and then I also work with her on the Consistency Club, which is a, subscription service for photographers to get monthly marketing ideas.
So, just back that up, like, my business is called Wing Woman Marketing, and I started doing, marketing for solopreneurs because, you know, When you’re running your own business, you’re wearing so many hats. It’s so difficult to do. I mean, I’m probably preaching to the choir here. You’re like miss automation, but it’s super hard to do, give every part of your business like, you know, the attention it deserves.
That’s why big companies have, you know, multiple departments and everybody’s in charge of their own thing. So I realized that, you know, as. A solo printer. One thing that was falling off for a lot of people is marketing. And I think it’s both because, you know, it’s just easy to put it off because you’re like, uh, you know, I’m busy right now.
I don’t need to market. Or you get gun shy, you’re like, I, I don’t know what to say. I feel like, you know, I don’t know what I’m saying or you know, like I feel like I’m an imposter. So people put off their marketing and so having somebody that you can kind of have in your back pocket that’s like, here’s some ideas.
Just keep putting it out there. Keep being consistent. That’s kind of how I started. And then I started working a lot with photographers. It just kind of like happened and then I got connected with Anneme and kind of the rest is history.
Colie: Well, I feel like a lot of photographers missed the boat on marketing. But like we have built in information to share
Dayna: I know.
Colie: images. And so I, I would think that working with photographers would be like super easy because they’re constantly having like this barrage of visuals for you to use for the marketing.
But I also feel like. I mean, I didn’t think I would be an entrepreneur. I think you knew this. I thought I would be in a classroom until, you know, get tenure and then retire. And this entrepreneurial life is not something that I saw for myself. But I do feel like for myself and maybe for a lot of other people, marketing is not what you thought of when you thought of becoming an entrepreneur.
Like we all imagine the service that we provide. We can also see the fact that we have to like service our clients and photographers know that you have to edit and you might have to create products and sell and do that kind of stuff. But I think marketing is something that like almost no one takes a class in and college unless you were a business major.
And so when it gets to running your business and you’re like, okay, I’m open. And you have no leads and you have no clients, and you’re like, okay, well how do they come? And of course it’s marketing and no one is prepared to do that for themselves.
Dayna: Totally. And I also think that waters get muddied between like marketing, advertising and sales. Like those three things, people kind of like mush together and they’re, they are three very different things. and I think marketing at least, I mean, I probably obviously feel this way, but I think marketing is like the most creative of them and sort of the most of an art, you know, like that you, that you have to like get good at it.
You have to, it’s a skill, I guess I’m saying. It’s like a muscle you have to flex over and over again. And like you said, unless you’ve really been trained in that or taken some classes in it, it can feel super overwhelming at first. And I think. Just, you know, like, I don’t know what I’m doing and so I’m just gonna avoid it altogether or like just try a bunch of stuff and then feel like I failed.
So I love to help people feel like they, they are, they can be successful at marketing. And I think you’re right. Like I do think it’s easier to work with photographers because you do have these beautiful images to share all of the time. That is a huge piece of the puzzle. That you don’t have to create those, you are already creating that all the time.
And so it’s just about helping you figure out how to share that in a way that’s gonna resonate with your ideal audience.
Colie: Okay. Let’s take a step back. Dayna. I’m gonna ask you to put on a teaching hat because I realized. We should probably define marketing, advertising, and selling. And today we’re really gonna be focusing on marketing and then sales. Cuz you guys know, I love to tell you to ask for the sale, but like what is your definition of marketing and then what is your definition of advertising and then what is your definition?
I guess we don’t really need a definition of sales, but how do you think about it?
Dayna: Yeah, I feel like, I mean, when I think of advertising, I’m thinking of like money. I’m like, this is what you’re like paying for. It’s a commercial. Like again, in, the solopreneur world, this might look like, Facebook ads. Like you’re, you’re actually like paying money. You’re creating like ad copy that’s very, high level.
It’s designed, your advertising is designed to sell.
Dayna: Marketing is designed to attract, not always to sell. So your marketing is more like you’re online dating, you’re like putting stuff out there like, you know, bringing your people in, but you’re not necessarily like, do you wanna get married? I feel like advertising is like, let’s do it.
Let’s go buy this
Colie: get hitched.
Dayna: Totally. Um, and then, I mean, sales is probably another word that photographers hate. I feel like everybody hates selling, but once you get really great at marketing, then I think that sales just becomes. Just, it’s so much easier once you, you’re a great marketer, it becomes so much easier to sell because you don’t have to do so much work.
Where people feel slimy about sales is when they haven’t been doing their marketing, and so they have to like push so hard for the sale, and that does feel gross by the way. It feels gross on our side. It feels gross on your side. Nobody likes that. When you get great at marketing, then sales just becomes.
Just a little cherry on top, and it actually feels right when you do it the right way, when your marketing is done well,
Colie: Yeah, I mean, we’re talking about marketing today, but I also consider that like educating. I feel like the more that you educate your potential clients and once they raise their hand, no one should feel dirty asking for the sale, particularly if they’ve said, Hey, I’m ready. I’m ready for what you’re selling.
But I think when a lot of photographers fall flat is that they’re not doing enough educating, they’re not doing enough, bringing people into their business. So then they’re doing things like cold outreach or they’re educating at the same time that they’re asking for the sale, and that’s why it feels so damn pushy to do it, and it doesn’t feel good.
I mean, I agree with you. Sales should not be a dirty word. It should not feel bad when you ask someone for the sale. If you’ve done enough educating and marketing before you get to that point.
Dayna: Yeah, I mean, let’s go back to our dating example, right? Like, if you’re gonna ask somebody to marry you, it shouldn’t feel weird. It should feel like, right? You know, like after you’ve done a bunch of dating, then if that’s the next right step, that made me think of something. So when I am coaching people on how to market on social media specifically, I tell people to think about three different areas you wanna, educate.
You wanna entertain and you wanna inspire. So if you think about those three areas for your content, it’s like, you know, if you’re always posting something and you’re thinking, am I educating, am I entertaining or am I inspiring? So, you know, an education post might look like something like
what does it look like? Like how do you pick out your outfits for your. Family photo session, or, I’m still so bad at giving examples for photographers. I should be better, but I’m not, you know, you’re entertaining with reels on the, you know, when reels came up, I feel like everybody totally understood what entertaining is.
It’s like how do you share information in a way that is entertaining, like, When we go on social media, we want to laugh a little, right? So entertain us a little bit. Don’t take yourself so seriously. And then inspiration might look like, you know, that’s probably the easiest one for a lot of people. It’s like, you know, sharing these photos that, you know, you’ve taken and being like, this is what family photos can look like.
This is what a newborn session can be. Um, you know, whatever. You’re, you’re inspiring people to be like, oh, that’s, that’s what I want right there. So, yeah, you can think about it
Colie: you’re inspiring them to take action. You’re inspiring them to hire you, which you know, goes, goes hand in hand. So like the inspiration for your session, like if they see something and they’re like, oh wow, I wonder if I could find something like that for my photo session. And they go shopping, whether it’s online or in person, and they’re like, oh my gosh, I found this cute outfit.
Well, now let me find a photographer to go along with it.
Dayna: Yes, a hun. A hundred percent.
Dayna: So, yeah, that’s how I kind of like to think about that. And, and then, so I, I have these two numbers in marketing that I love three, which is, you know, those three areas. And then for, the other thing that I like to talk about a lot is the rule of seven. And I think this is, Hopefully, if you haven’t heard of this, I hope this like really kind of is an aha moment for you.
Yeah. But it’s this idea that, you know, they, there’s a, there was a study done and actually it’s a bit outdated, but there’s a study done that says, we humans need to see something seven times before we will even really register it. So, You know, envision yourself driving on a highway and you see like a billboard.
This actually did happen to me. It was like a mattress company, and I was like, not really in the market for a new bed, but I kept like seeing this billboard and it was like talking about, after seven years, how many dust mites you have or like something gross about your mattress, right?
It’s like, and so it’s. A little entertaining. It’s definitely educating me, but it took me at least seven times of driving past that billboard before I was like, wait, do I need a new mattress? Right. So the, you can take that into the social media and email marketing world, and you need to understand that people are gonna need to see something from you seven times before they’re even like, oh, I guess I.
Do you want that service that they’re selling, or do I even need that service that they’re selling? And current data actually shows that this number’s more like 12 times just because we are inundated with information on social media right now. Right? So now take that. So let’s say it’s 12 times, take that number and be like every, because of the algorithm.
Every single one of your clients isn’t seeing every single one of your posts. So in order for them to see 12 posts, maybe you need to post 24 times. So that is quite a lot of times that you need to get in front of your ideal audience before they’re even ready to raise their hand and say, I think I want that.
Right? So, How do you set yourself up for success so that you can get in front of all of your clients 24 times that that is the magic of marketing, and it really is just gonna come down to consistency. Like, how do you keep yourself consistent so that you’re posting enough times that all of these seeds you’re sowing, somebody’s getting to 24 impressions every single month and being like, okay, I think I’m ready, you know?
Colie: And I think one of the things that I love about what you and Anneme do in the Consistency Club. Is that you’re talking about social media, but you’re also talking about email marketing. And so there’s a lot of power in, I realize that the people that are in those two audiences for any particular entrepreneur might be different.
They might be the same kind of person, but just because someone is in your Instagram audience does not mean that they are in your email audience. But if you happen to have someone. Who’s in both. And you are doing a good job at being consistent in your marketing. Someone in both of those audiences is going to get ready faster because they are seeing your messaging on both.
And I mean, we could go on and on about how your email marketing is great because the only gatekeeper there is whether or not they open the email. But we’re pretty sure that they got the email, they could access the email versus Mr Algorithm over on the social media. You know, you can beg and you can plead, and you can be like, I love you so much, will you please show my content to the people who follow me?
It doesn’t mean that they’re gonna see it. I mean, what’s the current number, Dayna? Is it like 2%? 2% of your followers see a given post? It’s ridiculous.
Dayna: you know, if you give a blood sacrifice to Instagram, I think it goes up to like four recently. No, you’re so right. I mean, it’s like you don’t know who’s gonna see that. And to your point about email marketing, the, the thing is, the thing to remember for those of you who are good about your email marketing, now some people are like, oh my God, I don’t even have an email list right now.
And some people are like, I have one. And I email like, Once a year, and some people are like, I’m good about my email marketing. So, you know, if that’s something I, I would really encourage you to work on your email marketing because like Colie said, it’s actually not even about if they open your email or if they click on something every single time that your name shows up in their inbox, that is a billboard for them.
Like it doesn’t matter if they read it. The win is just. Seeing your name in their inbox. I mean, I can’t tell you how many emails I get every single day from companies that I’ve subscribed to, and most of them I just check, check, check, check, delete. But there’s a tiny part of my brain that is registering that they’re sending me something, right?
And I’m like, when I’m ready, I know like there’s a reason I don’t un unsubscribe. Like when I’m ready, I know that that email will be there. So just getting in someone’s in inbox is a win. On social media, just getting in their feed is a win, and I think that it’s a little bit easier to get in people’s stories than it is to get on their feed.
Like I think you can work that algorithm a little bit more. And the trick behind that, again, this is something that we teach you guys in Consistency Club, but the trick behind that is getting people to interact with your stories like. Using those stickers, using those interactive things, getting people to reply back to vote on something, you know, whatever that tells Instagram, Hey, people like this content, and they’ll prioritize it to the top of their little story feed.
And you know, if you have a great photo, like again, Colie, your photo is so branded whenever I go on my Instagram and you’re like one of my top five people, right? So like I will immediately see you and even if I don’t watch your story, I’m like, oh, there’s Colie. Oh there’s Colie. Do you know what I mean?
Every single time. So I think that’s a, just like a, a little tip for, you know, and it doesn’t have to be photography related. That’s another question I get a lot is like, well, you know, what do I share? What do people wanna know? I’m like, it can be you, you, are you more than just a photographer? I hope so.
Like, share recipes, you’re. Making share something your dog did that day, or you know, like just share your life. People wanna see who you are, like wizard of eyes. Pull back that curtain. Let people kind of see behind the, the every day of your life. And that is the content that they wanna see. They just wanna see that you’re a normal person, just like them.
Colie: Yeah, I feel like the two things, I mean the listening audience will might be a little shocked, but the two things, well, let’s go with three things. The three things that people talk about the most is not my offers, it’s my rainbow glasses. In person or on Instagram. People DM me and are like, Colie, I love your glasses.
Where are they from? I’m like, I buy direct needs to pay me money because they are getting free advertising for me every time I get on number two, my fancy coffee espresso machine. When I first got it, I don’t know if you remember, I was posting so many videos of me making one. And the one that I really need to make now though is that, I mean, like I made my Americano before we started this recording, but like every morning James makes me either an Americano or a latte and he leaves it by the bedside before he leaves.
I really need to get a video of him making it so that I can make like an entertaining reel about if you buy a machine like this, your husband too will bring you coffee in bed, bed, something like that. And then number three is of course Disneyland. And I was at Disneyland last week and didn’t post a single video.
I was too busy. I was with my sister. Oh, see, I know. I was at Disneyland for three days
Dayna: I’m shocked.
Colie: kept it to myself. I know, I, I know. But I mean, those tend to get like a lot of, interactions and I know that all of you are thinking, but that doesn’t help you sell your stuff Colie. Oh, but it does because if you sandwich.
Your offer content with the entertainment content or the things that people are really talking about. Like for example, if I started my day with a video of my espresso machine and it got a lot of interactions, my next post is also going to get a lot of, I don’t wanna say feedback, but it’s gonna be ranked higher in the algorithm because Instagram is like, oh, everybody really loved her last post.
Let me show this
Dayna: love this. Yeah, they’ll love this
Colie: how it gets. Yeah. So. You know, there is a point to showing the stuff that doesn’t include the offer, but I think what Dayna and I are both trying to tell you guys is don’t forget to actually market your offer. And so I think this is a natural segue into the
Colie: We’ve talked about, you know, the rule of seven or 12, depending on what you believe in, which regardless it means you’re not talking enough about your offers. But there is a difference between the marketing. And telling people what you offer and actually asking them to buy. Dayna, let’s talk about that for a minute.
Dayna: a huge, huge mistake I see people make is like, they get over this hump of like, okay, I’m gonna start, you know, sharing everything about my life, and you become really relatable. And that’s also why people hire you, right? It’s like, oh, I can relate to Colie. I also love Disney or whatever.
So you get really great at that, and then you get shy about actually asking for the sale. And that is a huge mistake that people make. And again, I think it’s because people feel icky about sales. But just remember, like I’m saying, if you get great at the marketing part, Asking for the sale is the natural next part.
And actually it becomes weird if you don’t ask for the sale, then it becomes weird. It’s like, what? You’re not like closing the loop, like we’re expecting you to ask for the sale, and when you don’t, then it kind of becomes weird from the customer perspective. So, you know.
Just make sure that in your, in your marketing work, you’re always ask somehow asking people to take action. So how often do you ask for the sale? That’s a huge question that I get from people. They’re like, well, I don’t wanna be bugging people all the time. Like, how often do I do it? I think you can go back to the rule of seven or 12, right?
So like, you know, if it’s gonna take 12 impressions, then you wanna make sure that you’re asking people like, Hey. Do you wanna, you know, raise your hand here and jump in. You know about every 12 impressions and it’s not gonna be perfect cuz you don’t know what impression they’re on, but you wanna kind of find a cadence that works for you.
And there’s a difference between a hard ask and a soft ask. So
Dayna: If you are emailing your list once a week, right? You can come up with really cute, what we call CTAs or calls to action, which is like just what you’re asking people to do at the end of your email. So like, you know, that might be like, listen to this week’s podcast episode, or you know, if you’re a photographer, it could be like, check out this latest Instagram post.
That’s such an easy ask of people. Or you know, like, just reply back to this email and tell me what your favorite summer activity to do with your kids is like. That’s an easy ask of people. That’s still a call to action. That’s like a soft ask. You’re not actually asking them to buy anything, but what you are doing and what they are doing subconsciously is interacting with your content, which is telling you either your email marketing system or social media like, Hey, this person values this content.
Prioritize it in their inbox, prioritize it in their social media feed. They’re also telling you, Hey, I like what you’re putting out in the world so that you know that they become like one of your warmer leads In your mind, you’re like, wow. Every time I ask, Somebody to vote on something in my stories or reply back to an email, this person’s always doing it.
That is a sign that that person is ready to raise their hand and buy from you. And then, you know, so if you’re emailing once a week, I wanna say once a month, you need to do like a hard ask. Like, here’s what. Here’s what we’re offering this month. Like book a session, you know, check out this product I offer.
Here’s like, you know, you wanna be asking people like once a month, here’s how you put your money where your mouth is and buy from me. And I think what’s super important to remember is if people aren’t ready to buy, They’re not even gonna see it guys. They’re just gonna drive right past the billboard.
It’s gonna be like, they don’t even see it. Just go. They’re gonna keep going. So don’t feel like you’re bugging those people, cuz if they’re not ready to see it, they won’t see it, so don’t worry.
Colie: But I will also say if they are never going to buy from you and they unsubscribe everyone, it is okay. Bye. because listen, if you people who hang out on your email list, even if you are not paying an email marketing system where you are charged per user, or you know the number of users that you have, cuz everyone, I’m sure lots of people in the listening audience are using Flow Desk.
And Flow Desk doesn’t charge you per user, but. That person is still bringing down your click rate. That person is still bringing down your engagement if they’re just sitting on your list and they’re never opening your emails and they’re never clicking on anything. I wanna say one more thing because.
One thing that Dayna was telling us was, every time someone clicks, it makes it more likely that when they are ready to actually buy from you, that they will click yes. And another example of that is as someone reads your sales page, or if you’re a photographer, you might call it a service, its page, but as they read down, You want them nodding their head yes.
At every one of your headlines or every time you ask a question or every time you pose an objection or a problem, you want them shaking their head yes because then when they get to the bottom where you’re actually telling them the step to take to book a session. Hopefully they’re still nodding their head, so I mean, it’s just a little trick.
If you are only asking for the sale and you’re not asking them to do micro yeses along your marketing journey, you are really doing it a service because then the first time that they say yes, you really are asking them for money, and that’s harder than if they’ve been telling you yes on smaller things like checking out your Instagram, looking at your video, and all that kind of
Dayna: I love micro yeses. I’m gonna totally steal that. That’s a great thing. And it’s like going back to our,
Colie: welcome to.
Dayna: like, to our dating analogy, it’s like, Again, you don’t like ask somebody out and the very first thing you do is ask them to marry you. Like you ask them to go on a bunch of little dates with you, right?
Like you wanna get a bunch of micro yeses. I love micro yeses. We’re going
Colie: I mean, I just, I love the shaking, the yes analogy I had like every once in a while when someone hasn’t been on like my photography page, especially photographers, they’re like, oh my God, you had me thinking I needed a session. And I start laughing and I’m like, but that’s what my copy, my copy. It’s written for all parents.
Not just moms. I write it for dads and moms, but I’m also really writing to whoever the photographer is in the family, whether they’re a professional or they’re just the mom or dad with the camera, like I’m talking to them. Because you may be taking tons of photos, but you’re not in them. And so I’m trying to get you to understand, you know, even if you’re doing a good job of like capturing your children’s childhood, like you have to be in the pictures.
And so when I’m getting you to say yes, and you know, my goodness, it is time for me to have a session. And yes, I deserve to have photos where I’m not out of focus or from the most. Unflattering angle. I mean, I can’t be the only one that’s got a spouse that, I mean, he gets my double chin like every single time.
I, I, yeah.
Dayna: I do we need to send them to school for just how to take iPhone photos maybe.
Colie: So what I started doing, every once in a while I’ll have James take like images for my social media. So, I mean, you can see me, Dayna, I’m in my office. I’ll have him stand in that corner with a camera and take a few. What I’ve started doing is making him sit in the chair first. I take the photo and then I show him and I say, I want this angle.
I want this, and if you can see my double chin, take it again. I mean, that’s how I started. Also, what really helped, and I don’t know if anybody in the listening audience needs this little tidbit, but once I got a camera that had a touch screen, he stopped taking out of focus photos. It was great. I never got another out of focus photo.
Now some of them were unflattering, but none of them were out of focus. So I’ll take it.
Dayna: Very focused. Even if I’m flattering.
Dayna: I love that.
Colie: So I know you said asking for the sale like one every 12 impressions. And so for myself, someone who posts on Instagram most of the time, like twice a day, because my virtual assistant is awesome and she does that for me, but like we’re talking about 10 to 14 times that I’m posting.
Colie: On Instagram, right? I’m also posting on LinkedIn and Pinterest and YouTube, and I have the podcast, which comes out every week. So I wanna make sure that everyone knows, you know, it doesn’t have to be the 12 impressions on the one channel. Like I need to ask for the sale probably twice a week because of all of the places that I appear.
And the one thing that I started doing recently, Dayna, Actually, let’s talk about two things, cuz one of them will relate to the audience. The first one is, I did not have a three ways you can work with me when you are ready at the bottom of every one of my newsletters. And I finally added it. And guess what guys?
People are actually clicking on them. I mean, who would’ve thunk it? I mean, you put it there and then they click on it. Now have I had anybody that bought directly from one of those links yet? No. But I’ve been doing it for I think, three or four weeks, and sometimes the same person is clicking on the links.
And so what does that mean? That means that they are like, you know, they’re getting ready. They are, they’re psyching themselves up to be prepared to either buy my course or buy a v i p day. And then the second thing that I finally did was I started putting ads in the podcast because I wasn’t following my own advice.
Anywhere that you are putting your content out, you should be marketing. And after you’ve marketed well, you should be asking for the sale.
Dayna: Absolutely. And you know what, Colie, I’m gonna go back to like your thing here, which is if you guys are like, yeah, oh my gosh. Look at the math. Like how am I, do I need a spreadsheet for how many times I post before I ask people, guess what? Automation is your best friend here? Set it and. Forget it. It’s like, do you think that like, you know, j Crew is out there, you know, like overthinking how many emails they’re sending you?
They’re like, no, this is what we send out to everybody and we just like trust that it’s gonna get through to the right people when it needs to get through. And you need to have that same trust, but when you have to like, you know, micromanage every single post or every single email that you sent out, it’s real easy to start overthinking it or just avoid doing it.
Colie: Dayna, so you’ve got a good point. But for those people who like checklists, I’m not talking about myself, of course. What I would suggest that people do is if you’re doing any kind of content calendar on the post where you actually ask for the sale, just mark it somehow.
Like if you’re putting your posts in blue, mark the one that you did for a sale in yellow or green. If you wanna like give yourself a boost, like, Hey, people are gonna buy my stuff. But then if you look at your calendar at a glance and you don’t see enough green posts, then you know that you didn’t do your job.
Cause. If you are someone who is tracking your analytics, like for example, I know when Carolina Guz was on this podcast, we were talking about all the things that you can track in your business, and one of the things that she mentioned was, well, you have to not only track like your followers and your website traffic, it’s often correlated to how many times you’re posting.
So if you only get like five new followers on Instagram for a month, Well, that might be a problem unless you notice that you only posted one time. I mean, if you posted 10 times and you only got five new followers, that’s a bigger problem than if you just posted once. So, Tracking your data is multifaceted, and that includes when you ask for the sale.
And the other part is if you have a system where you can be like, oh, I sent this one email and I asked for the sale, and five people booked a session. I mean, guys, you should be giving yourself a pat on the back, of course, but you should also be marking that somehow because that email is probably one that you need to tweak and reuse next year or the next time that you’re advertising for sessions.
Dayna: Yeah, I love that. I love the visual of being like, this is when I’m asking for a sailor. Cuz I mean, I would assume most photographers are visual people, so I love the idea of like being able to look at it at a glance and say, you know, this is when I’m asking for a sale. So yeah. And I think another I.
Way that people get caught up in their marketing and like, end up putting it off is that they feel like they have to do. The whole thing from idea to, to like automating or posting all at the same time. And actually guys that’s three different, like parts of your brain, like coming up with the idea uses one part of your brain actually sitting down and writing or creating the post takes another part of your brain.
And then there’s a whole nother part that is like scheduling it or like pre-up uploading it, editing it on Instagram. Like those are three very distinct steps. And they also take three different parts of your brain. So if you’re trying to do them all at the same time, it’s really easy to burn out. Like imagine as a photographer, you’re,
having a session. Then two seconds later, you’re shooting that person session. Then immediately you’re sitting down while the family’s over there and you’re editing their photos, and then you’re like, what do you think? Like, that would be insane. Like, you would go crazy, you would burn out so quickly. So split up your, your content creation into those three things.
Like sit down, come up with all your ideas. Write them all down and then, you know, create them all. Like, you know that splitting it up like that is gonna help you burn out a lot less. And that’s how you can be like, okay, so now I’m seeing the big picture. I need to ask for a sale. Mm, I haven’t asked for a sale in a long time.
Maybe I need to do that here. Right. Becomes a lot easier to see the big picture that way.
Colie: I mean, and I feel like I’m mentioning I need to contact Metro Cool. To like get some kind of advertising dollars. Cuz I think this is gonna be like the third time I’ve mentioned it. Metro Cool has really helped me to do that easily because not only am I repurposing, My posts for like the different for Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube shorts and all of the things.
And I can change the caption to be specific for that platform. But like seeing it all on the calendar is what really helps me because then I can like be like, okay, well this was about this topic and this was about this topic. And it’s funny, Dayna. You are not the first person to come on this podcast and talk about doing the content creation in, in the different batches.
And she specifically said, you know, your brain does these things in very different ways, and so if you do. Like, let’s say one week you gather up all of the photos and all of the different client stories that you’re gonna tell for the month, and then the next week you actually sit down and maybe you write the captions, maybe you write the stories related to them, and then you schedule, just like Dayna said, you are going to get way more work done.
You’re going to be more productive, and it is not going to be as stressful on your brain when you’re doing all of those different activities at different points during the month.
Dayna: Absolutely. And I think as we like drill down into this, I’m just thinking back to the beginning where I was like, it’s hard for solopreneurs. Like now we’re just talking about marketing. That feels like a lot of work that we’re asking people to do, and that’s just one aspect of your job, right? Like you have all of these other aspects of your job.
And so I get that this feels real, really overwhelming and that’s where creating something like the Consistency Club, which is this monthly, like we, we send out monthly email and social media ideas. And what it does is it takes out that first phase and part of the second phase, it just takes it off your plate.
You don’t have to think of the ideas. We are telling you the ideas and all you have to do then in this second phase is just tweak and all you’re really doing is focusing on the third phase, which is just like scheduling it, getting it out there, doing all of that. So if that feels really overwhelming to you, that’s something that, you know, you might wanna try out for a month.
It’s a very low cost monthly subscription and it just takes that part, you know, like just takes that stress off, off of your plate. It’s like, I like to tell people, it’s like you can have a marketing director just like in your back pocket.
Colie: In your pocket.
Dayna: It’s a little Dayna in your pocket.
Colie: Well, and so let’s get to the outsourcing. Cause you know, usually I ask my guests what you outsource, but I’m not gonna ask you because you are the outsourcer. So the, the thing about like outsourcing is, I feel like when it comes to marketing, Like when people are like, oh, I need to market more. They don’t think about doing something specific to marketing.
They think about a social media manager,
Colie: like they’re like, oh, I just, I need someone to help me be more visible on social media. And what I wanna just say is, yeah, but you have to have the marketing piece. And even though. You should be really prevalent on like one platform, like you should, everyone should have one platform where like, this is what you enjoy the most.
This is where you show up. This is where you do the majority of your selling. You do then also have to think about the bigger picture, you have to make sure that you’re doing your emails and your social media marketing and your in-person networking. And so that’s the difference between like a social media manager and hiring someone to help you with your marketing.
So how does a photographer know when they are ready to start thinking about outsourcing their marketing? And of course, Dayna already said the Consistency Club is something that you can just try out to see if the ideas really help you. But once you do that, If you’re thinking, okay, no, I, I need more help than just some templates every month.
Even if you guys are doing a really great job of explaining it, like how does someone know that they’re ready? And by someone, I’m pretty sure I mean me. How do you know when you’re ready to start outsourcing your marketing?
Dayna: I mean, I think that when it starts to feel like, wow, this is taking me more time than, it’s like the roi, the return on investment here is like, a loss, right? Like you’re like, Hmm, this is taking me more time than I’m actually, getting back from. For it or if you start to figure out a way, when you start to like actually get it, I think maybe this is the answer, Colie.
It’s like when you start to actually get it so systematized and organized that you’re like somebody else. Could do this. Like I don’t need to be the one that is the answer. It’s like when you realize that it doesn’t need to be your fingers in the pot anymore, that’s when you can hire, I would say that’s true for all automation.
Like that’s when you can hire somebody else to do it. Whether that’s editing your photos, like when you’re like, I. I know exactly what I want and I can teach somebody else how to do that. That’s great. I think where I see people make a mistake, specifically with a social media manager is exactly what you said.
They think they’re gonna hire a social media manager that’s gonna come in and create marketing for them. And actually that is not what a social media manager does. What a social media manager does is just manage posting and interacting, and that’s great. That’s a wonderful. Skill and definitely something worth paying for, but they are never going to be able to talk to your audience the same way that you can talk to your audience.
So you have to figure out that step first. Like how do you come up with your ideas? How do you speak to your audience? And once you get really good at creating your content very consistently, then you can hire somebody to do that third phase part for you. That part where it’s like, Scheduling, interacting, you know, creating interactive posts with people, going and commenting on other people’s stuff.
Sure you can hire somebody to do that stuff for you, but if you’re not creating great marketing on the front end, all of that’s just gonna fall flat and people are gonna realize that it’s not you behind the curtains. So, yeah.
Colie: And I will say, even though I completely agree with what Dayna said, I also think it gets really confusing because sometimes those two people, like the person that you wanna hire for the marketing strategy and the person that you want to actually manage your social media, they can in fact be the same person.
But I think everyone assumes they are instead of doing their homework. And so they hire and they’re like, okay, but I thought you were gonna like, you know, create the strategy behind this. And they’re like, uh, no, that’s not what I do. So I think it’s just like everything, like when you go to hire, you have to be really clear as to you know, what the responsibilities of this person is and what kind of service they’re actually selling you, because it would be a shame.
If you thought you were gonna go in this basically with like a blank slate and be like, okay, create all of my marketing for me. And they’re like, uh, no, that’s, that’s
Dayna: not what I do.
Colie: Like, where’s your marketing plan? Where’s your content? Like, I need you to give me all this stuff and then I will handle like the management of it.
So, you know, just be really clear who you’re hiring.
Dayna: Because I think some people are clear that there’s, you know, there are marketing specialists and there are social media managers. Some people are super clear that they’re one or the other, but some people think they’re both, and some people, sometimes the hiring person thinks they’re both. So yeah, like you said, I think you just need to be really clear on that.
But I would, you know, I would suggest looking for first, A way to sort of automate the creation of your marketing. Start to figure out your brand voice. Start to figure out what you like to post every day. Start writing your emails more consistently. I feel like I keep talking about social media, but really email marketing is
Colie: Emails, emails,
Dayna: Emails. Emails like, do it. Um, and I would say, you know, if you, if you get to a point where you’re posting four to five times a week on social media and you’re sending two, at least two emails a month out to your list, and that feels like now something that you want to automate out, if that third phase is still really burning you out and you feel like it’s worth.
You know the fee to have somebody manage that for you, great. Then do it. But until you have that first part figured out, I don’t think that you know it’s time or you’re gonna have to pay a lot more for somebody to do your actual marketing strategy, that that is more expensive than somebody who’s just gonna manage your posting.
Colie: Yeah. All right, Dayna, one, last topic because as I was listening to you, I was like, oh my gosh. Have you dipped your toes into AI yet? I mean, I wanna say like I, yeah. So I’m gonna do a podcast episode on this soon, but I feel like every single tool is doing some AI Now, have you recorded a Loom video lately?
Dayna: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Colie: part where it’s writing
Dayna: A title.
Colie: you. And I will say my only objection is that it keeps on putting white people emojis in my titles. And I’m like, okay, no, I don’t want the white blonde man in my title. Let me go take that off. But otherwise, it’s making really good titles for my looms.
Dayna: Yeah. I think that that AI has a, a purpose in writing. I do think that, you know, like, I think it’s, it’s kind of actually similar. Like, it’s like if you wanna get an idea of where to start,
Dayna: Great. But if you take something that chat g p t wrote for you and you put it on Instagram, it’s gonna feel like something chat g p t wrote for you and you put on Instagram.
And that’s gonna feel weird. Like, it’s like it can’t yet talk the way that I talk. Like it’s not gonna be like y’all and yo and people and yo like, you know, it’s not gonna talk like that for us. So you need to go in and kind of. Add your brand voice in there. And I would just say, use that as like an outline for what you wanna say, especially if you’re feeling stuck in that brainstorming phase when you’re like, but it’s, you know, like it’s not gonna necessarily ideate at all of your ideas for you, and it’s gonna kind of come across as. Generic just because that’s, it’s kind of giving everybody the same advice, whereas, you know, that would be like, you know, it’s giving every single person that’s asking for, you know, what do I write as a photographer? It’s gonna give everybody the same advice there, whereas you are a unique individual who can come up with ideas that, you know, people are asking you about all of the time.
So, yes, I think there’s a place for it, but I feel like it’s a, it’s a tool. It’s not something that is going to, you know, replace your marketing. The same way I feel about social media managers and marketing directors. Like all of those are tools in your tool belt. But nothing is ever going to take. Your place as a person, as a human?
I don’t think that, I personally don’t think that ever will happen.
Colie: Yeah. So the rule of thumb guys do not copy and paste. Although Dayna, I will say, I was trying to train. ChatGPT talk like me. So I told it to add some cuss words. I’m gonna have to send this to you when we stop recording. It was fucking hilarious. Oh my God. It was like every seven words.
It was a cuss word and in some cases it just wasn’t placed well. And I was like, I’m gonna share this on social media one day, cuz I mean, it wrote me this thing and I was just like, that sounds like a robot. That’s not how I talk. And so then I gave it like a piece of my writing and said, can you rewrite this in my tone?
And it did it. And then I was like, okay, but I would’ve cussed at least, you know, three times in this. And then I told it to add cuss words. Without being specific, and it just went crazy. And then I was like, okay, no, rewrite this and add three cuss words. And then it was pretty decent. So I mean, I feel like the rule of thumb with, there’s two rules of thumb with ai.
Number one, do not copy and paste. And number two, I feel like refining the prompts that you’re asking is very similar to when you outsource your editing for the first time. No one is going to nail your editing, but if you give them feedback, And you give it back to them and you say, okay, can you do this instead?
And then, okay, can you do this instead? Eventually you get to a place where you’re like, oh, wow, that’s good. Okay, let me send that to my client. But it’s a process, so don’t think that chat g p t is gonna replace like anyone that you’re currently paying anytime soon.
Dayna: Yeah, I totally agree. But what a fun tool. I think it’s fun to play with.
Colie: All right, Dayna, listening audience wants to get in contact with you, why don’t you tell them where to find you on the internet, including the consistency
Dayna: Yeah, so I, I think I mostly am on at this can’t be that hard, on Instagram. That’s like, you know, if you’re DMing, you’ll get me behind the scenes there. And then if you guys wanna try out the Consistency Club, which again is geared specifically towards photographers. So this is monthly marketing ideas.
We give you two emails and we give you a bunch of social media posts. And they’re kind of coordinated. And then we have a monthly podcast episode, like a mini episode on the, this can’t be that hard podcast that drops where I’m giving you a little marketing lesson. Um, and so you can check that out at this.
Can’t be that hard.com/club.
Colie: All right, and guys, just so that you know, this particular episode was actually in. Inspired by one of those mini podcasts. They do disappear. They do not stay live forever. But I was driving, I had already invited Dayna to the podcast cuz sometimes I invite people, guys, and I’m like, I don’t know what we’re gonna talk about, but it’s gonna be great.
And then I was listening to their June episode, I believe.
Colie: And I immediately texted her and I was like, uh, you know, my podcast yesterday was the same content about asking for the sale. And I was like, that’s what we’re gonna talk about when you come on the podcast. So if you guys are not listening to Anneme’s podcast, and specifically the Consistency Club episodes, because they’re only live for what a week,
Dayna: A weekend. So they drop it the first Thursday of the month and then they’re there Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So you can listen to them then. But if you subscribe to the Consistency Club, you get it forever and ever.
Colie: Yeah. Dayna, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Thank you so much for dressing in your rainbow colors. I really appreciate it. That’s it for this episode, guys. See you next time.